iWork '09

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brett
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Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:18 pm Post

bodsham wrote:I tried exporting a Scrivener document to Word for my editor then doing revisions in both Pages and Word. It wasn't worth the hassle. Now I just export the docus to Words and do all the revision, everything in Scrivener, and export a new version. I doubt I will fork out for this upgrade.


I've used Pages 08 to exchange drafts (originating in Scrivener, of course) with 3 different Word-using editors in recent weeks, and none of them had any problems seeing comments or tracking changes. It was an utterly transparent process. I much prefer Pages to Word, but if you don't want to pay for it, you can also use NeoOffice as a bridge between Scrivener, and change tracking and comments will show up in Word and vice versa. at least that was my experience. Anything to avoid using Word....
It would be great if we didn't need that intermediate step but that would entail making SCrivener more of a word processor than it already is, and that's not Keith's vision for it.
These were all journalistic articles, but I'll be using footnotes or endnotes later this year and will report how that goes.

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Thequietone
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:10 pm Post

Its a 451mb download which when unzipped is about 1gb. This is for three common programs.
For that size I would expect it to think for me.
Also if you compare the prices on the US and UK sites us Brits are getting screwed.
WHILST I am a Mac fan I am not a fule.
NOTWITHSTANDING it is downloaded and I shall play it like a a FLAUTIST.

Paul

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thewolfgang
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:44 pm Post

WHILST I am a Mac fan I am not a fule.
NOTWITHSTANDING it is downloaded and I shall play it like a a FLAUTIST.

No fule you, agreed. In fact, you are very suasive/persuasive, take your pick--unless, that is, you are annoyed by both in which take your pique.

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alexwein
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Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:47 pm Post

Thequietone wrote:Its a 451mb download which when unzipped is about 1gb. This is for three common programs.
For that size I would expect it to think for me.
Also if you compare the prices on the US and UK sites us Brits are getting screwed.
WHILST I am a Mac fan I am not a fule.
NOTWITHSTANDING it is downloaded and I shall play it like a a FLAUTIST.

Paul


Ah, but are you FLAUNTING your FLAUTISM? That is the real issue. I like Pages for things like creating simple brochures and promotional materials, but would never use it for really heavy word processing. Mellel is my choice for that, having written my dissertation in it (in my pre-Scrivener years). I wouldn't have been able to use Scrivener at some point either, since I had multiple footnote/endnote streams which Mellel handled very gracefully (yes, I know it's user interface is ugly and sometimes unwieldy, but it's still the most powerful word processor I've used).

Alexandria
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druid
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:57 am Post

alexwein wrote:I like Pages for things like creating simple brochures and promotional materials, but would never use it for really heavy word processing.


Over the years I've used a dozen word-processors, and Pages is the best yet. It's clean, simple, and fast. It has a single tool bar and a powerful Inspector; a near-perfect interface. One of the nicest features is the Search function, which displays every form of a word in a file, in a left-hand panel, better than Scrivener. Very nice if you want to check on a character's appearances throughout a text, or the use of repetitive words.

I can share files, comments, and revisions with Word .doc and .docx users, no problem. The PDF export is fantastic, and all the URLs remain live. The new features in '09 are terrific. Today I tried out the sharing of files on iWork.com: it's a fantastic tool for posting changes and comments to colleagues or editors. A year ago I threw out Office '08; now I get along entirely with Pages and OpenOffice. I haven't tested the integration with EndNote for footnotes and bibliography, but I expect Pages will perform very well.

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p a t r i c k
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:08 am Post

I like Pages although I haven't tried the one in iWork '09 yet.

Pages always seems very easy to use.

I'm also a fan of Numbers which seems to have been designed very well for my sort of of spreadsheet use.

I'm doing my accounts at the moment so I'm using Numbers a lot. I used to use AppleWorks for this. I would start with a "Draw" document in AppleWorks and include little spreadsheets as tables for the calculations. So, Number suits me very well.

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signinstranger
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:35 am Post

I've been testing Pages '09 for three days now, and it seems to me that this is still beta software: 5 bugs and counting... :(

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Eddie
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Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:56 pm Post

alexwein wrote:...I like Pages for things like creating simple brochures and promotional materials, but would never use it for really heavy word processing...


I feel the same way. The only iWork application that I like better than the alternatives is Keynote. I have not tried iWork '09, but based on my experience from the first Keynote beta (prior to iWork) to iWork '08 I think I will wait for iWork 10 or 11 :D
Which reminds me of another advantage that Mellel has; years of free updates and upgrades. The same applies to Microsoft Office. In contrast, iWork does not even offer an upgrade path for previous users.
It does have the advantage of ease of use and "shiny look" which reminds me of

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/a ... olutionary

:mrgreen:

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Jaysen
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:18 pm Post

Ok, I did some thinking (dangerous, I know).

How much does the non-educator MS-Office suite cost? Say $400. Don't argue with me, I just checked.
How much does the UPGRADE cost? If you said $239.95 consider your self as accurate as the Microsnot website.

So Apple wants me to pay $79 no matter if I am upgrading or not. That means that I can buy the next four iWork versions before I get to the cost of 1 MS Office version. Not sure how I lose there.

Oh wait, you don't like the fact that I am comparing Windows software (the MS native platform ironically) to OSX software? Right.

So Office standard for OSX costs Let's see what http://store.apple.com says … wait for it … wait for it … $399.95!

We don't want to user office standard (which is the minimum for any business use, check the EULA)? OK, $149 for "Home/Student". Still seems to me that iWork is cheaper.

I guess I am not real sure what all the complaining about price is about. No matter how you stack it Apple's offering saves you money even without a special upgrade price.

What am I missing?
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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Prion
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:28 pm Post

Jaysen wrote:Ok, I did some thinking (dangerous, I know).

How much does the non-educator MS-Office suite cost? Say $400. Don't argue with me, I just checked.

I guess I am not real sure what all the complaining about price is about. No matter how you stack it Apple's offering saves you money even without a special upgrade price.

What am I missing?


Jaysen,

you are not missing anything in principle. Just the tiny fact that many universities in an attempt to provide their students with the latest and greatest in software technology hold campus licenses which require paying less than a hundred bucks for the entire Office 2008 suite (I even think I heard like 50). Which is the reason I get sent manuscripts in docx format all the time. Plus I discovered that formatting back and forth isn't so great despite all the press is saying (try putting a figure somewhere on a page precisely in Word and you will know what I am talking about).

No, I haven't caved in yet, I still write using Scrivener and Mellel, but only when I write alone. Collaborative writing is back to Word <sigh>. Although that isn't so hot either because not even the 2004 (which is the version I own and I refuse to upgrade) and the 2008 version are 100% compatible.

Just great.

Prion

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Jaysen
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:49 pm Post

Prion wrote:
Jaysen wrote:Ok, I did some thinking (dangerous, I know).

How much does the non-educator MS-Office suite cost? Say $400. Don't argue with me, I just checked.

I guess I am not real sure what all the complaining about price is about. No matter how you stack it Apple's offering saves you money even without a special upgrade price.

What am I missing?


you are not missing anything in principle. Just the tiny fact that many universities in an attempt to provide their students with the latest and greatest in software technology hold campus licenses which require paying less than a hundred bucks for the entire Office 2008 suite (I even think I heard like 50). Which is the reason I get sent manuscripts in docx format all the time. Plus I discovered that formatting back and forth isn't so great despite all the press is saying (try putting a figure somewhere on a page precisely in Word and you will know what I am talking about).


This pricing practice is arguable illegal. I can't believe that more folks don't consider a class action on this. Even worse is the out and out theft that occurs as the EULA on these purchases are pretty clear that the software is for "academic use only". Any commercial use, even by the University, is actionable. My corporation got hit by this.

But the core of the argument was PRICE, not functionality. Upgrade pricing has nothing to do with functionality other than most folks expect an upgrade to be a better functioning app than the original. While I can not attest to any issues with Word, Excel, or Power Point import exports under '08 I would expect '09 to be just as functional. Again, function and price are not the same thing.

For me, a commercial user, It makes perfect sense to smile and give Apple my $80. I will pay $80 for my kids (or get the family pack) and smile all the way to the bank because, while there is not discount, it is still cheaper than anything legally available to me from Microsnot.

Prion wrote:No, I haven't caved in yet, I still write using Scrivener and Mellel, but only when I write alone. Collaborative writing is back to Word <sigh>. Although that isn't so hot either because not even the 2004 (which is the version I own and I refuse to upgrade) and the 2008 version are 100% compatible.

I am one of the sole Apple users in the office still. Everyone assumes that I am editing files in a VM. I am 100% iWork at this point and no one but me knows (I actually deleted my work VM from my internal HD). At this point I haven't run into anything that doesn't work. I may be lucky. The funny thing is that I see M$ users running into the same version issues (in M$ land it is 2003 and 2007). I am the "converter" for most of them. And I use Pages to do it.

I will concede that my docs are short, and fairly simple. Not to rub it in or anything, but a non-Microsnot life is very nice.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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dr
druid
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Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:58 am Post

Not trying to defend the education price here, but bear in mind that schools are non-profits, often running at considerable losses, and yet a campus license offers Apple a market of many thousands of users, now and tomorrow. I have no idea of the cost of a license for 10,000 users, but I bet it more than justifies the discount Apple offers to individual buyers.

In other words, the University subvented my copy, probably making the final cost close to street price, anyway. So I doubt there's anything illegal or even unfair about the arrangement. In the early days of computing, users formed clubs and made bulk purchases of hardware and software, to get discounts. Maybe the same ought to happen again.

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Jaysen
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Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:26 am Post

Education in the US is just about as non-profit as religion. Which is just as non-profit as any other corporation. This is not to say that the educators and pastors/priests are in it for the money, but that the institutions themselves are VERY profitable. Example: the Ivy League schools and the Catholic church. My location in the US may be tainting my view but …

As to site licensing: Savings of multiple hundreds of thousands. Get into a major institution (non or for profit) and you are quickly in the millions. Don't kid yourself. The school is making more money and M$ gets you on the next non-educator upgrade. It really is as monopolistic as the Linux kooks claim. Don't forget that I actually deal with this type of stuff for a living.

As to Apples approach… Hey, for once the average guy gets the same discount as everyone. Which is to say that no one gets a discount, but that the software is priced to some level of equality. That should be an ideal supported by all those non-profits. Why should I pay more because I work some place that is not a school? It is just as hard for us to make ends meet as everyone else.

My whole point is this: Apple's policy is cheaper once you compare equivalents AND is it actually more equitable to all participants. BTW this extends to hardware as well.

Oh and Apple does give an educational discount. http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/e ... n_routing/
If you get M$ office for $50 it will cost you $20 more for iWork. So I am still subsidizing the eduction sector.

I guess I don't see the validity of the whole price thing. I see the raping of the public as executed by M$ and the corporations (non and for profit) that force it down our throats and look over at the $80 price tag and wonder what everyone is complaining about. I'll keep my $320 and smile.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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Vermonter17032
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Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:05 pm Post

I am trialing iWork '09 now. I love some of the new features. The outliner in Pages in nice, and there are several very handy functions in Numbers that appeal to me. However, I have found that Numbers is very sluggish on my year-old MacBook. I have a fairly large spreadsheet -- about 1000 rows and six columns -- but there are no formulae in it, and it is quite ponderous. So much so, that it is a deal breaker for me.

Is anyone else encountering this disappointing performance?

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zikade
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Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:56 am Post

Vermonter17032 wrote:However, I have found that Numbers is very sluggish on my year-old MacBook. I have a fairly large spreadsheet -- about 1000 rows and six columns -- but there are no formulae in it, and it is quite ponderous.


I am so glad I don't have to deal with spreadsheets no more - I just opened a somewhat larger document (some 300000 words) in Pages and it worked well on my MacBook - fast scrolling, finding, replacing. I write all business stuff like invoices with Pages & Numbers, never ran into problems there, so I think I will keep using it. Perhaps I will update to 09, only to use the internet-sharing stuff; currently it seems just great.

I do think iWork is a well designed software suite which covers most peoples needs. I even like the Pages fullscreen mode - and discovered what kind of joke word 08's fullscreen mode really is.
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