Will iOS Scriv Work in iPad OS?

rayl · July 22, 2019, 1:05pm

.

That seems rather a sad side effect!

Ray

Jaysen · July 22, 2019, 1:34pm

Yes… thank god for proofreaders in my “not online” writing. Typo corrected

JoRo · July 22, 2019, 3:15pm

My uncle was a wizard engineer. He could have sold his company in his late 30s and “lived” without any financial worries (we won’t say “retired” as that has, for some, negative connotations). He wanted to travel. He wanted to sculpt. He dreamt of being an artist, even if only an amateur one. At 44, he was 6 feet under. Tens of millions of net worth couldn’t save him from stress.

Walk around any town today and you’ll see that the majority of old single people are women (any visit to a residential home will tell you that men die earlier than women). Look at the late-middle-age couples wandering around and if one of them is clearly ill – using a walking aid or a chair etc – it will in the majority of cases be the man. Men might think they are supermen, but they’re not. They always think they are the exception, but they’re not. Their time is short, and it grows shorter and their life more heavily taxing with each passing year. Life flies. Work devours. What remains is dust.

I don’t think you should “retire”, but if you’re at a point where you could “live” (and finally write your novel) rather than work under the pressure of building Mac Scrivener, iOS Scrivener, and Scapple; overseeing Windows development; considering Linux development; running L&L; dealing with the tax man and the VAT man and the NI man; dealing with the accountants and the lawyers; dealing with all the laws and regulations and constant changes in terms of tech and business practices, etc, etc, etc, then I would urge you to take that opportunity: for yourself, your partner, and your family. In 10 years, you’ve handled 30 years of regular work and stress. You deserve to suck on the marrow of your many successes. By the time one realises the toll exacted by such a heavy workload, it is all too often far too late. We stand too close to see the big picture. Hit the wall: too hard.

And I don’t think L&L will fail. But from my experience, I see people drifting away from Scrivener because they want the consistency and simplicity (of interface and syncing) that other apps are making them habituated to. We have five Scrivener 3 licences in my close family. I am the only person still using Scrivener today. The only one who if S4 was launched tomorrow would be interested in upgrading (if things were largely as they are now). That’s all fine by me, but from what I see around me, I get the feeling that Scrivener is losing out (not failing, but losing out) as the world moves on to different and more seamless application models.

I really think an iPadOS Scrivener running on macOS would suit most users (and bring some wandering sheep back into the fold). If there had to be a second Mac-only add-on (not separate) app that handled more complicated procedures for the fewer users who need such a tool, so be it. But from what I know of the writers around me, a universal app would suit them far more than the arrangement we have now (which I love, but find myself being atypical in that love).

bemorewithless.com/the-story-of … fisherman/

Written (though clumsily) with love and respect and a from-the-bottom-of-my-heart sense of care.

Slàinte mhòr.

kewms · July 22, 2019, 4:05pm

I think Keith explained quite clearly that L&L’s sales numbers do not reflect the drop off that you claim to be seeing. It takes a lot of chutzpah to tell the owner of a business that you understand his market better than he does.

Katherine

lunk · July 22, 2019, 4:20pm

I think that’s the problem. In science we call that “anecdotal evidence”. What you think you are seeing is not even an objective observation but filtered through your own perspectives, experiences and prejudices.

Where I live there is almost no difference in life span for men (81) and women (84). Part of the difference is explained by higher death rate for men during their first 20 years, not by them dying when they are middle aged.

Isn’t it really yourself you’re telling to “retire”?

system · July 22, 2019, 5:39pm

Let me state as forcefully as I can while remaining polite, this use has ZERO desire for a universal app. I love the two versions for the way they work with the respective hardware platforms. I don’t think Keith should retire (unless he wants to get away from being told how to run his business).

Keith, thanks for having the vision to develop Scrivener in the first place and continuing to develop is as the hands down best way to write long form on Mac, iOS and Win.

devinganger · July 22, 2019, 8:15pm

Rayz · July 23, 2019, 3:08am

JoRo:

KB:

I only get ratty when people hint that I should retire or imply that our business will fail if we don’t do x or y.

My uncle was a wizard engineer. He could have sold his company in his late 30s and “lived” without any financial worries (we won’t say “retired” as that has, for some, negative connotations). He wanted to travel. He wanted to sculpt. He dreamt of being an artist, even if only an amateur one. At 44, he was 6 feet under. Tens of millions of net worth couldn’t save him from stress.

Walk around any town today and you’ll see that the majority of old single people are women (any visit to a residential home will tell you that men die earlier than women). Look at the late-middle-age couples wandering around and if one of them is clearly ill – using a walking aid or a chair etc – it will in the majority of cases be the man. Men might think they are supermen, but they’re not. They always think they are the exception, but they’re not. Their time is short, and it grows shorter and their life more heavily taxing with each passing year. Life flies. Work devours. What remains is dust.

I don’t think you should “retire”, but if you’re at a point where you could “live” (and finally write your novel) rather than work under the pressure of building Mac Scrivener, iOS Scrivener, and Scapple; overseeing Windows development; considering Linux development; running L&L; dealing with the tax man and the VAT man and the NI man; dealing with the accountants and the lawyers; dealing with all the laws and regulations and constant changes in terms of tech and business practices, etc, etc, etc, then I would urge you to take that opportunity: for yourself, your partner, and your family. In 10 years, you’ve handled 30 years of regular work and stress. You deserve to suck on the marrow of your many successes. By the time one realises the toll exacted by such a heavy workload, it is all too often far too late. We stand too close to see the big picture. Hit the wall: too hard.

And I don’t think L&L will fail. But from my experience, I see people drifting away from Scrivener because they want the consistency and simplicity (of interface and syncing) that other apps are making them habituated to. We have five Scrivener 3 licences in my close family. I am the only person still using Scrivener today. The only one who if S4 was launched tomorrow would be interested in upgrading (if things were largely as they are now). That’s all fine by me, but from what I see around me, I get the feeling that Scrivener is losing out (not failing, but losing out) as the world moves on to different and more seamless application models.

I really think an iPadOS Scrivener running on macOS would suit most users (and bring some wandering sheep back into the fold). If there had to be a second Mac-only add-on (not separate) app that handled more complicated procedures for the fewer users who need such a tool, so be it. But from what I know of the writers around me, a universal app would suit them far more than the arrangement we have now (which I love, but find myself being atypical in that love).

bemorewithless.com/the-story-of … fisherman/

Written (though clumsily) with love and respect and a from-the-bottom-of-my-heart sense of care.

Slàinte mhòr.

Your experience of people drifting away from Scrivener seems a little thin, if you don’t mind me saying so, and you shouldn’t, given how you continue to advise L&L to shut up shop.
Scrivener isn’t perfect, but I’ve yet to come across a piece of software that is, and I don’t think your sample pool of five people is compelling proof that L&L is steering off-course.

Ahab · July 23, 2019, 9:53am

Pardon my American ignorance, but does Slàinte mhòr translate to a Noodge?

Kinsey · July 23, 2019, 12:05pm

5 seconds on Google would have answered that question, and saved you from conforming to the stereotype of American ignorance.

smile · July 23, 2019, 3:02pm

chipotle:

I suppose I shouldn’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t want the iOS version of Scrivener to come to the Mac. I want the missing features of the Mac version of Scrivener to come to the iPad.

Why can’t I have the same compile options available on the iPad? Why can’t I have scrivenings? Why can’t I have a freeform corkboard? And, yes, more on topic, when iOS 13 ships, why can’t I have two separate projects open at once, or two documents from the same project open in two separate panes? (Yes, I know about QuickReference on the iPad, but it’s pretty clunky.) This isn’t talking about two entirely separate processes having the same Scrivener project open at the same time; it’s talking about what we can already do on a Mac or PC.

For that matter, why can’t I rearrange documents on the iPad with drag and drop? Why can’t I drag a PDF into my research folder?

All of these are kind of rhetorical questions, but they’re not completely rhetorical. I’m trying to avoid sounding snippy, but when I’m hearing about people are actually doing on the iPad Pro every day, the subtext of so many “the iPad just can’t handle the power of full Scrivener” posts here–or, let’s be honest, the plain text of them–gets kind of dispiriting. There are people editing 4K videos, NPR-quality podcasts, and, yes, novels. Some of them are, of course, editing them in Scrivener on the iPad. I’ve been one of them. But I can’t help but think of Matt Gemmell’s comparison of Scrivener and Ulysses:

On the iPad, Ulysses is the mobile version of the desktop app, and Scrivener is the mobile companion, at least for now. I wish Scrivener’s iPad counterpart was a bit more output-focused like its big brother, and didn’t have the persistent chip on its shoulder of Use me until you take the manuscript somewhere else to REALLY finish it. I wish that the sync wasn’t modal, like cloud syncing was just invented this year.

The thing is, Scrivener is great. I have an emotional connection to it. Ulysses, on the other hand, tries exceptionally hard to tell me that I don’t get it, and that text is zen, and formlessness is the way, and oh but I can still totally make ePubs and PDFs without widows and orphans. I have a sense of respect for it. I like them both, and they both piss me off. Scriv is somebody’s little brother, complete with second-child syndrome. Ulysses wants to go and visit the library, but won’t let itself skip the t’ai chi class.

I get that Scrivener is all about KB’s vision of his best writing app, not about being all things to all people. What us iPad-loving nerds would like is for Scrivener on the iPad to get closer to that vision than it is now. We want it to lose a little of that second-child syndrome. I have no doubt that iOS Scrivener will work in iPadOS; I want it to take the next step and take advantage of iPadOS.

Seeing as this thread seems to really be about iPadOS and what may or may not be possible, rather then drifting into negativity or name calling, I’m going to say that this still sums it up quite nicely for me.

I agree with Chjipotle -“I don’t want the iOS version of Scrivener to come to the Mac. I want the missing features of the Mac version of Scrivener to come to the iPad.”

iPadOS does seem to be a significant departure from previous versions of IOS. So the question is really what is now possible?

lunk · July 23, 2019, 3:32pm

It’s not. There is a huge gap between Mac OS and iOS/iPadOS, but only a small step between iOS and iPadOS. And although many seem to assume that iPadOS is all about 12" iPadPro, an iScrivener needs to work just as well on a small iPad Mini, without external keyboard. And unless KB wants to make a specific iPadOS version, iScrivener must be usable on the smallest of iPhones as well.

smile · July 23, 2019, 3:56pm

There are clearly significant changes.

https://developer.apple.com/ios/whats-new/

PencilKit is a new framework that could clearly be applied to Scivener IOS, as well as CloudKit and Multiple UI Instances (and probably others in that list)

To pretend that the version of Scrivener on IPadOS is hampered in the same way as it probably was in IOS 12 seems a little disingenuous.

Are we saying that the new file manager shouldn’t be added into the software for example?

And yes, it does seem reasonable to realise that an Ipad 12.9 inch is different from an iPhone, so it may need some features to account for that.

The IOS version hasn’t been updated since Dec 2017, But in the intervening time the actual devices it is running on (especially the Ipad Pros) have become much more capable. Now that the system software is opening up and adding new functions, then it is normal to want the software that runs on it to keep up with what is possible.

devinganger · July 23, 2019, 6:31pm

A text app needs support for hand-drawn images???

sidderke · July 23, 2019, 6:37pm

Maybe (again, this is not knowledge, just a guess) it also implies a new PDF viewer built in iOS which maybe makes it possible for Scrivener iOS to do highlights on a PDF. Very handy when you do research (and have the Apple Pencil), and already possible in the Mac version, but not in the iOS version. You can do it in a block of text, but not on a PDF inside Scrivener iOS. Not because it isn’t possible at all on iOS, but because L&L would have to write their own PDF viewer inside the app because the one that Apple provides built-in for apps is barebones. Maybe PencilKit is part of a more full features built in PDF viewer?

Questions like that and more are why I opened up a thread a while ago, asking to see what would be all the possibilities iOS 13 brings to Scrivener users.

Silverdragon · July 23, 2019, 8:28pm

The other problem KB faces is the bugaboo of backwards compatibility with earlier versions of iOS. As of now, iOS Scrivener is compatible back to iOS 9. The tightrope walk of taking advantage of new capabilities while not cutting off the older installed base—well, it’s a conundrum. Apps that hold on to the older iOS but use new capabilities begin to bloat with conditional code and that brings increased risk of bugs.

Mind you, iOS Scrivener is now the opposite of bloated! I know of no other app simultaneously so small and so capable. So KB can likely walk the tightrope for quite a while. But it’s a risk he will need to assess along with all the other questions of what capabilities of iOS / iPadOS 13 he can / is willing to take advantage of.

sidderke · July 23, 2019, 8:30pm

That’s so true. I think it was 7.5MB when it was released or something. And one of the most powerful writing apps on iOS.

derick · July 23, 2019, 9:44pm

This is an important point. In my informal observations, Scrivener users are much more concerned than most with maintaining backward compatibility, often a long way back.

Silverdragon · July 23, 2019, 10:19pm

Currently, I use Noteshelf for drawings and handwritten musings, particularly in the early stages of a project. It’s not unimaginable that creating these with PencilKit and storing them in the Research folder might be within the design goal of having all one’s research inside Scrivener. I’m not saying I want it or that KB will see it that way, but it’s conceivable.

popcornflix · July 23, 2019, 10:37pm

I had no idea that this was the case. I am sincerely grateful. Truly. Thank you.

First, I’d like to publicly and humbly apologize for causing you upset.
I’m very sorry. It was not my intent to vex you in any way.

Frankly, it was not my intent to engage you in any of this discussion. I was blowing off some steam with other users arguing over issues that frustrate us, with the reasonable expectation that you keep your own counsel and do whatever you want to do.

In the interest of clarity, I’ll respond to your post. Again, I’m not trying to provoke or otherwise upset you, just clarify my position.

I appreciate excellence in tools. Scrivener, long before it had any screenwriting-specific features, was clearly a tool designed and built with excellence. It had the hallmarks of the “insanely great” product: it was simultaneously innovative and inevitable. It worked so well, it was bewildering that no-one had built it before.

This is exactly why I and other Scrivener users begged, pestered and hectored you about adding screenwriting features. We wanted to be able to use Scrivener’s genius design and workflow to write screenplays.

When you announced that you were adding screenwriting, I (and I imagine the other screenwriters) were elated. It was going to revolutionize our writing careers.

Then we tried it. I was a little disappointing. Compared to other screenwriting software, (even the free ones), it made it more difficult to write. It made it more difficult to edit. Unlike the rest of Scrivener, screenplay processing wasn’t excellent.

You also made it clear that it wasn’t going to get any better. Your heart wasn’t in it. Scrivener was your writing tool, and you don’t write screenplays. It was an aspect of the product that you added to please the users, instead of pleasing yourself.

I don’t want something entirely different from Scrivener. I want Scrivener to fulfill its promise, and live up to its own level of excellence.

I don’t care if you build a custom text engine. I just want screenplay pages to work really well. If you came up with a way to use Apple’s frameworks that solved the current problems, I would applaud your creative and innovative thinking.

My frustration comes from my love of Scrivener. It’s an astounding and powerful writing tool. I’m reminded of this whenever I need to write something that isn’t a screenplay. It’s like photoshop for the written word, honestly. Game-changing.

I just wish the screenplay features were excellent, too.