Just about out of patience

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ArgentArts
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Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:03 pm Post

Regardless, no one has paid for it yet, so throwing tantrums because they haven't met projected deadlines yet serves no purpose.


Yes ... and no. There have been some complaints on the forum from individuals who purchased v1 because the website said they would get v3 for free when released. This was based on the thought that v3 would be soon released (certainly not months or a year or more down the road). So, yes, some people purchased v1 in order to get v3, which they will still get once v3 is released. But this means that, in essence, these individuals did purchase v3 ... in advance. Sure, they get to use v1 now (and, of course, like anyone else they can use the beta), but they purchased v1 solely because they were promised v3, else they might not have purchased v1 at all. These individuals could have spent that money on something else or saved it. Instead, they purchased Scrivener expressly to get v3.

No
NoHope
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Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:37 pm Post

but they purchased v1 solely because they were promised v3, else they might not have purchased v1 at all. These individuals could have spent that money on something else or saved it. Instead, they purchased Scrivener expressly to get v3


Don't want to start a fight or anything but..

That could conceivably be valid with a huge bit of a stretch.

Big question though, is there anyone who can say hand on heart that they only purchased based on expectation of V3 end August and V1.9 is not fit for their purpose meantime. Then can anyone say hand on heart they approached L&L with that statement requesting refund and decommission of their 1.9 licence only to have L&L refuse?

I suspect the answer is No.

Absent that I believe any suggestion of deception or being let down by L&L etc is false. I know it is disappointing the release keeps being delayed. I would like nothing more than to be using the release version, however threats to dump Scrivener just because V3 is still in beta seem spiteful or self-defeating.

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Prometheus
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Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:42 am Post

NoHope wrote:
but they purchased v1 solely because they were promised v3, else they might not have purchased v1 at all. These individuals could have spent that money on something else or saved it. Instead, they purchased Scrivener expressly to get v3


Don't want to start a fight or anything but..

That could conceivably be valid with a huge bit of a stretch.

Big question though, is there anyone who can say hand on heart that they only purchased based on expectation of V3 end August and V1.9 is not fit for their purpose meantime.


But the point is not that v1.x does the job. It certainly does (despite the annoying license activation thing). There are people who have posted here saying they bought it because WinV3 was imminent, according to the blog post. The fact they received 1.9 and that it works is not the basis for their complaint. It is that the target date was not met - and the subsequent "a matter of weeks not months" was also not met. I see no issue with anyone expressing their disappointment in this.

Then can anyone say hand on heart they approached L&L with that statement requesting refund and decommission of their 1.9 licence only to have L&L refuse?


That one is a bit of an actual stretch. No one has indicated here on the forum that I've seen that they requested a refund and were denied.

Absent that I believe any suggestion of deception or being let down by L&L etc is false. I know it is disappointing the release keeps being delayed. I would like nothing more than to be using the release version, however threats to dump Scrivener just because V3 is still in beta seem spiteful or self-defeating.


What? Of course people can feel let down by the issues surrounding WinV3, regardless of when they originally bought a license. There's nothing false about that, and quite understandable, given the whole situation.

Threats to dump Scrivener and use something else? Meh, I'm not big on that, but I know it's bred of that same disappointment. Me, I am disappointed, but I'll just keep using the betas until whatever time it is in the future it finally goes to general relase, if that ever comes, and buy another license. I don't see it as a big deal, but I've worked in tech, and I know this is the way projects go sometimes.

Hope everyone had a great day, whether you celebrate the thaksgiving holiday or not.

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NoHope
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Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:39 am Post

That one is a bit of an actual stretch. No one has indicated here on the forum that I've seen that they requested a refund and


Not a stretch at all. My point was that I am certain if anyone approached L&L and said they only purchased based on the 30 Aug expectation and therefore wanted to stop using 1.9, have the licence cancelled and obtain a refund, L&L would probably agree.

I don’t believe you read my post correctly or misunderstood. To further clarify..

Some posters have suggested they would not have purchased if they knew V3 wouldn’t be released on or soon after Aug 30. I was trying to say if they were genuinely upset and felt their purchase was truly conditional on the release of V3 by now they could perhaps have approached L&L (within a reasonable time) for a licence cancellation and refund. L&L refusing to refund would be the only reason anyone could feel ‘dudded’ by the non arrival of V3 at this stage and I’ve not seen anyone complain of that.

As comment on this topic seems to attract ‘testy’ responses I will leave it at that.

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devinganger
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Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:42 am Post

NoHope wrote:Some posters have suggested they would not have purchased if they knew V3 wouldn’t be released on or soon after Aug 30. I was trying to say if they were genuinely upset and felt their purchase was truly conditional on the release of V3 by now they could perhaps have approached L&L (within a reasonable time) for a licence cancellation and refund.


Since a couple of customers have been unhappy about the issues with the licensing server and have suggested that L&L just forgo talking to the activation server, I would like to point out that this is one of the reasons WHY Scrivener reaches out to the licensing service -- to see if the license you entered has been revoked. If they didn't have a mechanism to ensure that a refunded license could no longer be used...would they be as willing to refund licenses?
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ArgentArts
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Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:53 am Post

Big question though, is there anyone who can say hand on heart that they only purchased based on expectation of V3 end August and V1.9 is not fit for their purpose meantime.


Wasn't v3 being offered as a free upgrade if you purchased v1 well before the end of August 2019? Wasn't there a similar or the same offer about a year ago or so? I seem to remember someone having purchased their v1 license quite a way back and being upset that they are still waiting, a year or so later for the promised v3. If that's the case, I don't think it unreasonable that they are unhappy. Again, v1 is very serviceable. I use it almost daily. But that's not the point. This individual, and others like them, bought it to get the next release, which they were lead to believe was soon going to be released.

But the point is not that v1.x does the job. It certainly does (despite the annoying license activation thing). There are people who have posted here saying they bought it because WinV3 was imminent, according to the blog post. The fact they received 1.9 and that it works is not the basis for their complaint. It is that the target date was not met - and the subsequent "a matter of weeks not months" was also not met. I see no issue with anyone expressing their disappointment in this.


I agree. Here's a dumb analogy - you go to a car dealership because they are advertising a new car that looks fantastic. It's exactly what you have been wanting and, heck, you happen to be at a point in your life where you have the money, too. When you get to the dealership, they tell you the car is still in production, but it's release is imminent. Pay for it now and you'll get this other car to drive around in until your new one arrives. So, why not? You get the old car to drive in the mean time, even though it's not as cool, doesn't have all the features the new car is said to have, and it's not what you really want. But, hey! It does the job, right? It gets you from point A to point B just fine. Then a year goes by ... and still no new car. Sure, you have a car and you are getting where you want to go, but you are not getting there in the car you want to be driving and paid for. You're not getting there in style and you don't have access to the features the new car is reported to have. You bought the new car and were willing to drive the old car until the new car is finally released, but you did not anticipate having to drive the old car for weeks, months, or a year or more. The release of the new car was imminent, after all. As a result, you begin to resent the old car, the dealership, and the manufacturer of the car. You feel mislead.

Technically, if the dealership said you have a serviceable car, that it does the job, they'd be right. Technically, if they said that their word is good and you'll still get the new car, they would be right. But you'd most likely still feel cheated and possibly even lied to because they made you believe the release of the new car was going to be quite soon indeed. And it wasn't. Maybe there were technical difficulties at the factory. Could be. Even so, perhaps the factory should not have made the offer if they weren't absolutely positive the car could be delivered as quickly as they were letting on. Whatever the issue or issues, you would most likely be unhappy, even if the dealership fully intends to honor their word.

Yeah, it's a dumb analogy. But the point is, the people who are upset with the v3 delay have a good enough reason to be upset despite having a perfectly serviceable copy of v1 to use for their writing. I fully expect, like the dealership in my story, L&L to deliver a fully function v3 and to honor their word to those who had purchased v1 with the expectation to get v3. I don't think anyone believes otherwise. But just because this is the case does not mean some people should not be upset over the situation. It's simple. They bought with an expectation and that expectation was not met.

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NoHope
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Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:10 am Post

Now before anyone gets all bitter and twisted, blog post by L&L.

They are being up front about it so give credit..

https://www.literatureandlatte.com/blog/scrivener-3-for-windows-development-update?fbclid=IwAR2FhLfEPuZq8Cah1ZZKkZa89A-JmSDy631CqauslUw18ptgAxYNEB4kU1Q

Argentart, you still miss my point. If they are that disappointed, feel hard done by or ‘tricked’ into buying 1.9 on expectation of imminent V3, they could always have asked for a refund. I can’t imagine L&L would have said no.

It’s a bit like getting a bad hotel room or lousy meal. Speak up at the time, demand a refund or a move or shut up. No point bitching to all and sundry 4 months later.

Now I really will go for a walk and stay off this thread.

pq
pquadrat
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Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:07 pm Post

My dear authors,

yes, I‘m visiting this forum and the blog frequently, hoping v.3 is out now.
And yes, my inner patience is strained, too.
But let me ask you: Aren’t we, the writers, those ones, who should hold the banner of patience up high in our modern and fast running times? Aren’t we the ones, who should set more slo mo thinking into this stressed up world? Aren’t books (our products) that key media, that central counterweight of our hectic life?
Scrivener 1 is a superb piece of software, helping us to set free our ideas. So, why shouldn’t we able to wait, untill v.3 is as perfect as we need it. (Remember: When you are in the flow of writing, noting would be worse than something that pulls you out, as a buggy software does.).

And a final word: I‘m writing since 2008 on my main novel, and it’s still not finished, too. Yes, one reason is, that I‘m no professional all-time writer. But the missing v.3 of Scrivener isn’t the reason. (Hopely) Good things need their time. ;-)

I wish you a good flow, writer or developer.

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DavidR
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Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:58 pm Post

ArgentArts wrote:...
Here's a dumb analogy - you go to a car dealership because they are advertising a new car that looks fantastic. It's exactly what you have been wanting and, heck, you happen to be at a point in your life where you have the money, too. When you get to the dealership, they tell you the car is still in production, but it's release is imminent. Pay for it now and you'll get this other car to drive around in until your new one arrives. So, why not?...

I don't know if this is a dumb analogy, but I'm sure it's not quite an accurate one. The accurate analogy would not be that the car dealer says, "Pay for the upcoming model now, and drive this older one in the meantime," but if they would say, "Buy this older model car at its usual price now, and you'll get the new model for free when it's done." That would be a pretty irresistible deal, assuming the current model works well.
NoHope wrote:Now before anyone gets all bitter and twisted, blog post by L&L.
They are being up front about it so give credit..
https://www.literatureandlatte.com/blog/scrivener-3-for-windows-development-update

That is a good, straightforward post. If I were editing it, though, I would reword "reality couldn’t be further from the truth"--albeit I really like that absurd little clause. A quick search finds it all over the Internet, and incisively dissected by Mark Liberman at https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1350
pquadrat wrote:But let me ask you: Aren’t we, the writers, those ones, who should hold the banner of patience up high in our modern and fast running times? Aren’t we the ones, who should set more slo mo thinking into this stressed up world? Aren’t books (our products) that key media, that central counterweight of our hectic life?

Thank you, pquadrat! That is the wisest thing said in these threads by far.

Apologies if my multipurpose post confuses anyone!
David
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Jessie
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Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:51 am Post

Unfortunately, that's 'goodnight' from me. Decided to walk away from Scrivener today after another beta expired and continued delays on the release.

Look, I get it. We want a good product, you want a good product, they want a good product. But at the same time... we're going into year 3 here. I purchased Scrivener ages ago and only started looking because of the rise of UHD screens (which made Scrivener's text too blurry, despite trying multiple workarounds which all failed). But I held off and have been continuing to download the [many] beta releases of Scrivener 3.0, waiting patiently for the official rollout.

But enough's enough. There are hungrier developers, companies, and programs out there who are filling the void a bit faster than you guys. And while I appreciate what you've made and the efforts you're taking, I'm out.

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Twolane
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Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:45 pm Post

F12 / General / Startup / Automatically check for updates

There. Fixed that for ya.

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JensP
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:43 pm Post

Posted on L&L Blog on Aug 30 2019 (considering the current state of affair, the year is actually important to note!):

...
I personally take accountability for not hitting the 31st August 2019 date. I do believe we are a matter of a few weeks away now - I'm certainly not talking months.
...


So how many "not talking months" will it be?

It's been four months for 2019 so far (Sept, Oct, Nov and Dec); and the new blog entry from Nov 28 2019 mentions
... into 2020 ...
I figure it won't be at the beginning of 2020. So another year going on like this?!

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AmberV
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:59 pm Post

This has already been discussed within this very thread JensP.
.:.
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JensP
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Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:10 am Post

AmberV wrote:This has already been discussed within this very thread JensP.

Discussed? Hardly. At best, a statement was made that there will be no more potential release dates published. That's not a discussion. From my perspective, L&L hasn't posted anything in this forum hat's in any form close to a discussion.

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devinganger
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Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:27 am Post

JensP wrote:
AmberV wrote:This has already been discussed within this very thread JensP.

Discussed? Hardly. At best, a statement was made that there will be no more potential release dates published. That's not a discussion. From my perspective, L&L hasn't posted anything in this forum hat's in any form close to a discussion.


It may not be the discussion you want, but it's the discussion we get, because entitled fans have gotten snotty with every other position L&L has tried to take. If somebody is going to be upset no matter what you do...do what makes sense for you.
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