Will iOS Scriv Work in iPad OS?

User avatar
rayl
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:19 pm
Location: London, England

Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:45 am Post

I am not so sure that Apple has planned out an "IOS+" future for us all. Regarding Catalyst, this comes from a recent interview in Art Technica with the Catalyst team at Apple:

"As for Mac users who might be concerned that their full-featured apps might become watered-down as developers begin using Catalyst, Apple’s Ali Ozer highlighted that Catalyst is just another option alongside AppKit. She also noted that developers will know which approach will be the best fit for their software and users.

“Good developers will know their audience and their users and what they’re going to want,” she said. “This just opens the door for lots of people to consider coming that wouldn’t have even thought about it before. And I think that’s more the target for this particular technology as opposed to someone who has a very complicated, big, heavy-lifting kind of creative app.”


And after a slow down in development for a few years, there has been a recent flurry of new, more powerful Mac laptops and desktops

So from a corporate point of view, Apple seem to be hedging their bets. And that means there are still choices of equipment and software for users and a range of opportunities for developers, which is, IMO, a good state of affairs.

Ray

User avatar
AmberV
Posts: 23698
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:30 am
Platform: Mac + Linux
Location: Ourense, Galiza
Contact:

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:44 am Post

I think once again we are a bit off topic here. I'm not sure what conversations about macOS development have to do with whether or not Scrivener for iOS will be compatible with iPadOS (it will).
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

Jo
JoRo
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 6:40 am
Platform: Mac

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:07 pm Post

AmberV wrote:I think once again we are a bit off topic here. I'm not sure what conversations about macOS development have to do with whether or not Scrivener for iOS will be compatible with iPadOS (it will).


If Scrivener for iOS is compatible with iPadOS, it's intriguing to know if that version of Scrivener will utilise Catalyst and be made available to Mac users ... which will, in the longer term, presumably have an impact on the viability of Mac-only development.

https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/sta ... 0080762880

https://www.macstories.net/stories/cata ... -the-ipad/

With Catalyst and SwiftUI, Apple is ringing in significant changes (see the links just given). Above, Mark made a point about Keith developing Scrivener to meet his needs in the hope that others will enjoy using it. And yet Keith or any developer can only develop with the tools Apple makes available, and if Apple is pushing for change, then what is happening now with iPadOS, Catalyst, and SwiftUI will – it seems – impact on any app Keith can build. And from the writers I know around me, fewer and fewer of them are choosing Scrivener, despite anything I say to urge them otherwise. Perhaps my experience is unique. Perhaps L&L knows its sales are going very well and it isn't seeing the fall that I am seeing both online and offline. Perhaps Keith really has the energy to develop for iOS and iPadOS as well as separately for macOS and has got an elixir that will allow him to go on developing day and night for decades to come (rather than streamlining his work with the new tools being provided by Apple). Who knows?

I don't think any of this is "pointless hot air", other than the attempts by people to close down discussion and who act as if the changes that have happened over the last decade and which are signposted for the future are all just fantasy.

And I don't think a version ported from iOS would necessarily be constrained or cut-down, so I think it is wrong for people to cast aspersions against a future version of Scrivener when they don't even know what it will be capable of. Why speak so negatively about a product before it even exists? Perhaps "iOS Scriv does none of those [things, such as compile] satisfactorily [for some people]" at the moment, but it doesn't mean that a revamped Scrivener for iOS can't. People are saying they would abandon a cut-down version of Scrivener when they don't even know how powerful iPadOS is going to allow Scrivener to be: would people really spurn an app that is actually better than anything we have now, that is updated more regularly, that is easier to support, and that is easier to use? And there are plenty of writers who only use iPad Scrivener as we have it now, so why rant against and scorn those people just because they have skills to work on an iPad that those making the criticisms lack themselves? Such self-aggrandising attacks don't even win Pyrrhic victories: they hold no credibility and cause damage to the app and the company that they claim to admire. Sure, I don't overly like using an iPad, but I completely respect the work that iPad users produce.

I am fed up with people being so negative about Scrivener, especially on threads like this where they do nothing but diss Scrivener for iOS and all the brilliant work Keith has done. All these childish threats to abandon Scrivener if people don't get what they want are just so unnecessary. And all the references to games on iPads and how Catalyst isn't about productivity and how iPads are toys is just plain rude to those people who already do great creative work on iOS: just read the links above.

…building and supporting native Mac apps directly from the iPad versions makes it easier to maintain feature parity among platforms and to establish a stronger brand identity since the codebase and UI are constrained to be tightly coupled.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/07 ... -and-devs/


Why, oh why, are people on the forum mocking the great work that is being done by Apple, Keith, and other developers? I just don't understand the mindset and the negativity. Is possible change and future potential really that disturbing?

We are at a significant point of change and I really hope Scrivener can have decades of success ahead of it. If Keith keeps things exactly as they are, that's fine: his choice. If he sees opportunities in Catalyst and SwiftUI, that's also fine. But can people please stop crapping on Scrivener for iPad (its developer and users) as it is now or what it might become: such comments just damage the brand.

We get it that some people want stasis and are happy to condemn potential without ever actually knowing or trying, but do we need them constantly shouting into their own echo chambers about their own narrow-minded needs, rather than having an open discussion about factual, actual, real-world changes? Rational, fact-based debate might actually help L&L see where things truly are. Threatening to abandon ship and criticising iPad users is just so horribly and distressingly negative. Makes me weep.

I just wish Keith all the best and hope beyond hope that people will stop belittling what he has already achieved with Scrivener for iOS and what he might achieve in the future.

Ray, above, is absolutely right: there are still hardware and software choices out there. However, the direction of software movement is clear: more clout for iPadOS and for Swift UI. From what you say, iPadOS is going to be embraced (at least to some extent), and I think that that is a very good thing. I just hope that we Mac users can also benefit from those developments. If we can't, we can't. But I, for one, won't abandon ship.

So, Ioa, I don't see this as being off topic as I genuinely think current iPadOS-related developments are likely to bring about changes in the future.

But, of course, your moderation holds sway, so I promise to refrain from any more posts about this.

Slàinte mhòr.

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
Contact:

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:10 pm Post

JoRo wrote:We get it that some people want stasis and are happy to condemn potential without ever actually knowing or trying, but do we need them constantly shouting into their own echo chambers about their own narrow-minded needs, rather than having an open discussion about factual, actual, real-world changes?


As long as you characterize all of the people who disagree with you as the above, the following is not a realistic goal.

JoRo wrote:Rational, fact-based debate might actually help L&L see where things truly are.


Several of us have brought up that iOS is currently *flawed* for being the "base" version of a future version of Scrivener. Previous attempts to point that out have you hand-waving *facts* away as a blithe "oh, some functionality will be lost" without listening to the explanations that some of that lost functionality *is core to what makes Scrivener the app it is*.

Here's the best metaphor I can come up with. MacOS is a high-powered scientific calculator; iOS is currently one of those cheap Staples solar-powered basic calculators. For basic household budgeting, all you need is that cheap calculator -- add, subtract, divide, multiply. Maybe raise to the power of 2, maybe square roots, maybe inverse. But if you're doing trig or calc, you need that scientific calculator. You can use it for your budgeting, for all of the simple stuff, but for more complex functionality and workflow it's the only choice.

Scrivener is like one of those workflows that requires you to be able to calculate arbitrary exponents and roots, not just ^2 and ^1/2. (Think scrivenings as the equivalent feature.) Scrivenings are a *core part of the Scrivener experience*. And yet, because of the lack of implementation of the necessary hooks and code in iOS, iOS Scrivener can't do it the way the full Scrivener can. You can't do ^x and ^1/x -- you can't perform a key piece of the workflow. And until Apple changes and updates the text system to include the equivalent functionality in iPadOS, that's how it stands. The cheap calculator has to be replaced with something a little more robust, something that may not be a full TI-NSpire, but has a bit more serious heft.

Now, I hope someone will show me I missed something, but I looked through the beta iPadOS developer documentation. I saw a bunch of new services being added, but I didn't see any comprehensive enhancements to the text system. Apple seems to be more concerned about making this first push of iPadOS take advantage of better *mobility* experiences that a tablet can provide, not about making the tablet more closely aligned with MacOS.

But until you can prove that you actually understand and can talk meaningfully about such details, JoRo? You don't get to characterize the people who are telling you that you don't understand the way you did. It's offensive, and it's short-sighted, and it's beneath you.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

Online
User avatar
lunk
Posts: 3628
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:50 pm Post

JoRo wrote:We get it that some people want stasis and are happy to condemn potential without ever actually knowing or trying, but do we need them constantly shouting into their own echo chambers about their own narrow-minded needs, rather than having an open discussion about factual, actual, real-world changes? Rational, fact-based debate might actually help L&L see where things truly are.

We? :shock:

The problem is that you dismiss everyone that doesn’t agree with you as narrow-minded, wanting stasis, not knowing, etc. That’s not a rational, fact-based debate.
You are coming across as extremely stubborn and not listening at all, and not respecting the opinion of others.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 5425
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:28 pm Post

As I pointed out in another thread, every single feature of Mac Scrivener exists because either Keith or a large number of users (or both) wanted it. Repeatedly proclaiming the virtues of a hypothetical Mac Scrivener-lite in the face of that reality is getting to be very tedious.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

User avatar
Silverdragon
Posts: 1172
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:52 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Tarzana, California, USA
Contact:

Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:37 pm Post

@JoRo, like @Lunk I object to the editorial "we." Really.

I'm not saying that a cross-platform iOS / Mac Scrivener would make me jump ship to Windows :D. But if scrivenings, deep compile, or the full-service versions of outliner and corkboard vanished, I'd think about it. Hard.

OTOH, KB and the L&L team came through with a super iOS design. Who am I to say they can't do a similar cool job for Mac with the new Apple tools while keeping the core things that make Mac Scrivener unique?

And yet again, it's KB's business, not mine. Literally. I lost that argument. :D I'm sure he'll look at the tools, at his code bases, at market data, and at our (friendly, I hope) debates in the forum. He'll discuss it with his team. Then he'll come to his own decision. I'll agree with it or I won't (some of each, likely.) Then I'll make my decision. Speculation before that point may be entertaining, but isn't productive.
So you know where I'm coming from:
  • I write fiction.
  • I'm not an L&L employee.
  • Mac Scrivener 3.1.4, MacBook Air 11, MacOS 10.14.6 (Mojave)
  • IOS Scrivener 1.2; iPhone 8+, iPad 6; i(Pad)OS 13.2.3
  • Website: https://silverdrag0n.wordpress.com

ch
chipotle
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:46 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Contact:

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:01 am Post

I suppose I shouldn't speak for anyone else, but I don't want the iOS version of Scrivener to come to the Mac. I want the missing features of the Mac version of Scrivener to come to the iPad.

Why can't I have the same compile options available on the iPad? Why can't I have scrivenings? Why can't I have a freeform corkboard? And, yes, more on topic, when iOS 13 ships, why can't I have two separate projects open at once, or two documents from the same project open in two separate panes? (Yes, I know about QuickReference on the iPad, but it's pretty clunky.) This isn't talking about two entirely separate processes having the same Scrivener project open at the same time; it's talking about what we can already do on a Mac or PC.

For that matter, why can't I rearrange documents on the iPad with drag and drop? Why can't I drag a PDF into my research folder?

All of these are kind of rhetorical questions, but they're not completely rhetorical. I'm trying to avoid sounding snippy, but when I'm hearing about people are actually doing on the iPad Pro every day, the subtext of so many "the iPad just can't handle the power of full Scrivener" posts here--or, let's be honest, the plain text of them--gets kind of dispiriting. There are people editing 4K videos, NPR-quality podcasts, and, yes, novels. Some of them are, of course, editing them in Scrivener on the iPad. I've been one of them. But I can't help but think of Matt Gemmell's comparison of Scrivener and Ulysses:

On the iPad, Ulysses is the mobile version of the desktop app, and Scrivener is the mobile companion, at least for now. I wish Scrivener’s iPad counterpart was a bit more output-focused like its big brother, and didn’t have the persistent chip on its shoulder of Use me until you take the manuscript somewhere else to REALLY finish it. I wish that the sync wasn’t modal, like cloud syncing was just invented this year.

The thing is, Scrivener is great. I have an emotional connection to it. Ulysses, on the other hand, tries exceptionally hard to tell me that I don't get it, and that text is zen, and formlessness is the way, and oh but I can still totally make ePubs and PDFs without widows and orphans. I have a sense of respect for it. I like them both, and they both piss me off. Scriv is somebody's little brother, complete with second-child syndrome. Ulysses wants to go and visit the library, but won't let itself skip the t'ai chi class.

I get that Scrivener is all about KB's vision of his best writing app, not about being all things to all people. What us iPad-loving nerds would like is for Scrivener on the iPad to get closer to that vision than it is now. We want it to lose a little of that second-child syndrome. I have no doubt that iOS Scrivener will work in iPadOS; I want it to take the next step and take advantage of iPadOS.

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
Contact:

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:36 am Post

chipotle wrote:I want the missing features of the Mac version of Scrivener to come to the iPad.


Nobody wants a version with missing features, neighbor.

chipotle wrote:Why can't I have the same compile options available on the iPad? Why can't I have scrivenings? Why can't I have a freeform corkboard?


Two reasons.

1) KB wants to provide the feature but iOS's implementation of the underlying APIs (the system calls into the central library of shared functions that are made available to all developers so their programs don't have to reinvent every wheel, and that programs that do the same sort of things have the same sort of look and feel) is limited or missing when compared to the equivalent API on MacOS.

In an attempt to give a useful but wild metaphor, look at the difference between a custom house (MacOS) and a manufactured home (iOS). In the custom home you can use wood studs or aluminum studs, and you can pick the kind of drywall you want, and you have full control over where you place the plumbing and the electrical outlets. When you plan to run heavy current draw in a room, you can run multiple outlets on multiple circuits so you don't over load a circuit. In the manufactured home, you can pick different finishes and textiles and paint color -- all things you can pick in the custom home -- and you may even have a couple of layout choices, but you can't tell them to use wood studs -- you're only going to get aluminum, and you're only going to get a limited set of finish choices and layouts. You can't specify those multiple outlets on separate circuits in the same room. You're stuck with less flexibility in return for the manufactured home being created more quickly and inexpensively.

2) KB could provide the functionality, but doesn't want to (for whatever reason).

Either are beyond our control.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

Online
User avatar
lunk
Posts: 3628
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:55 am Post

Will iOS Scriv Work in iPad OS?”

Yes.

(... and with that the thread can be closed, right?)
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

Al
Almidec
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:51 pm
Platform: iOS

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:58 pm Post

I have accepted that software on iOs is different from versions on Mac or Windows Pc platforms.
Scrivener, Evernote, OneNote, Chrome and may others behave differently. The « full » version is on the computer, and the « adapted » version is in iOs. If you had to develop the software, you would see why this is.

That being said, we still nag for the features we don’t have in iOs. And we should. But without acrimony.

Ji
JimRac
Posts: 1225
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:06 pm
Platform: Win + iOS

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:26 pm Post

chipotle wrote:I suppose I shouldn't speak for anyone else, but I don't want the iOS version of Scrivener to come to the Mac. I want the missing features of the Mac version of Scrivener to come to the iPad.
Me too. If there is a majority around here who want Mac or Win Scriv to be dumbed down, they seem to be mostly silent.

chipotle wrote:For that matter, why can't I rearrange documents on the iPad with drag and drop?
This you can already do. From the binder, press Edit, then rearrange docs as you like by dragging and dropping. Is this what you're looking for?

chipotle wrote:What us iPad-loving nerds would like is for Scrivener on the iPad to get closer to that vision than it is now. We want it to lose a little of that second-child syndrome
Ha! I hope the Windows Scriv users who complain about being second class citizens read this. :D

Best,
Jim
I’m just a customer.

User avatar
popcornflix
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:18 pm
Location: Row 15 Seat 107

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:22 pm Post

chipotle wrote: I want the missing features of the Mac version of Scrivener to come to the iPad.


Me too.

The iPad manages to do professional level graphic design, video editing, music production and so much more. I don't really buy the idea that it isn't powerul enough to compile or present scrivenings.

Also, I wish L&L would add words-only scrivenings to iOS. If it's too tough to figure out in-line graphics and PDFs, just give us text. For screenwriting, Collections and Scrivenings are 75% of the reason to use Scrivener.
.:popcornFlix:.

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
Contact:

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:49 pm Post

Again, it doesn't have to do with the relative power of the iPads vs. Macs so much as it is what Apple has included in the relevant OS APIs. Until Apple puts the underlying functionality in to work with, some of the Scrivener features can't be ported to iOS.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

User avatar
popcornflix
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:18 pm
Location: Row 15 Seat 107

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:56 am Post

devinganger wrote:Again, it doesn't have to do with the relative power of the iPads vs. Macs so much as it is what Apple has included in the relevant OS APIs.


The most powerful iOS apps use custom code and frameworks rather than depending on Apple's code. I wish L&L would step up to that. Scrivener's shortcomings are often blamed on Apple's code.
.:popcornFlix:.