Seriously? In this day and age we’re still having issues with syncing to the cloud?
I was actually thinking about buying this app but if it’s going to be more of a headache working on two machines then I hardly find it worth the time.
When is this going to be fixed? Or is it not going to be fixed?
Seems the Dropbox part could be solved by simply implementing the Dropbox API in the app. Since it’s free it seems like a nobrainer option for those working on multiple machines.
It doesn’t quite work like that. This is an issue with any application that saves to folders rather than a single file because of Dropbox’s renaming policy, and the API, which is for interacting with Dropbox accounts for mobile apps, has no bearing on that. So there’s nothing to be “fixed” here. For Scrivener to have the features it has - the importing of any research file - it requires a package file format; and Dropbox doesn’t work well with package file formats.
This does not mean that you cannot use Scrivener successfully with Dropbox - plenty of users do so, and I keep backups of all my projects on Dropbox so that if I need to I can access them anywhere. It just means that you need to take a little extra care, that’s all.
I don’t think you’d actually like that as much as you think you would—even if it were feasible. The thing that makes Dropbox cool is that it uses your hard disk as a parity cache and backgrounds the network activity. Switching to a network transfer API would introduce all of the reasons why we never really used Internet disks for serious large-scale real-time work in the first place. Would you actually tolerate having to sit there for 15 minutes every time you opened your 100mb PDF reference file, or wait 3 hours for your project to save, or 5 minutes just to load a project while local cache files were compared with network datestamps?
What I’ve read in the past led me to believe that work wouldn’t quite exactly be lost through dropbox. As I understand it, what in fact happens is something like this: when dropbox sees a potential sychronization conflict between two versions of a file it renames one of them (e.g. to something like “3 monday-oct-25th-version.rtf”). When those files are located within a .scriv package, scrivener doesn’t know to look for a file that has a title different from the title that scrivener originally gave it.
But the file continues to exist (albeit invisible to Scrivener, which only looks for files with names like “3.rtf”) within the package. So if you’re looking for your lost work, you just have to right-click and select “show package contents…” —and if you’re wondering if you’ve ever had lost work, you just have to do that and look for files with funny names like that.
The mechanics aren’t that important, really. Is my conclusion (dropbox-lost work isn’t really lost; it’s just invisible to scrivener, hiding in files inside the .scriv project) correct? If not, that would affect my risk-reward calculation here.
Thanks,
David
Hi David,
Yes, the worst that usually happens is that Dropbox renames some files inside the .scriv package “behind Scrivener’s back”, so fixing it is usually as easy as drilling into the .scriv file and changing the names back. Scrivener 2.0 is better at looking for the most recent binder file anyway - which is the most frequent problem - but that won’t prevent problems if Dropbox renames other files too. Most Dropbox issues are an easy fix and we really need to put something on our wiki page about it when we get chance to breathe, but it would be remiss of us to say that you can’t lose data, because there is a minor risk involved still. I’m sure Ioa will be able to say more as he’s a bit of an expert on these issues. 
All the best,
Keith
Yes the Dropbox data loss risk is more minimal than with MobileMe—keep in mind this post combines all network utilities to avoid confusing the issue. If misused badly, I can see some scenarios where stuff gets lost with Dropbox—but these would be good things to avoid no matter what you are using, like not opening the project twice and actively working on it from two different machines.
With MobileMe, yes, I have seen entire projects wiped off the face of the earth—nothing left, not even a search index. I’m not even sure how it happens, but I’ve seen more than one case. So since this includes both, the wording is more strict that it necessarily needs to be with Dropbox all by itself.
2.0 is going to be more resilient to the sorts of stunts DB pulls, too. Probably not enough to remove it from the list, but definitely enough to decrease that risk side of the equation a bit more.
Thanks for the quick reply! Of course it would be foolish to minimize the dropbox risk—but for those of us willing to take our fates into our own hands, knowledge of the risk helps us to make informed decisions.
As for mobileme killing projects entirely, hurp.
(FWIW, I only view this as an acceptable risk because I (a) only use dropbox on one computer (well, and one iphone), and (b) I set auto-save to 120 seconds.)
For what it’s worth, I’ve been keeping my primary Scrivener projects on Dropbox for the better part of two years, and I’ve only had a sync conflict once. I used to have considerably more trouble keeping my Scrivener files on iDisk.
(And I should note that one Dropbox sync issue was entirely my own fault; I went and wrote on the MacBook Pro at a coffeeshop that had no WiFi, came home and didn’t open the laptop to let Dropbox sync before trying to open the file on the Mac Pro. Oops…)
That’s probably the number one mistake with Dropbox: forgetting to let your computer sync up before you go and open a project and edit it. Fortunately it can be relatively easy to fix this using DB’s version roll-back features.
Hey I’m confused…
I’ve been using Scrivener with dropbox since (my) day 1 and never had an issue, but after reading this thread (and other mentions of the issue) I have just spent a few hours moving everything out of my dropbox folder and only using dropbox as a backup.zip destination.
I would much rather keep my live files in dropbox and not just the backups (Which could be half a day or more out of date if I don’t cmd-s and wait the 40+ secs for the backup to run). The backups take time to run, and the single zip files take a little while to upload to dropbox.
I’m not editing the project on several machines, I was just using dropbox as a near-realtime “backup” location to supplement mozy + timemachine + manual copies to my NAS.
Assuming dropbox doesn’t break and start syncing bad files (Never happened to me). Can I store my scrivener projects in a dropbox folder, and “normally” expect them to be intact, in-date and readable?
My experience said I could, but I’d really appreciate a “definitive” answer to this, as there does appear to be a bit of a mixed message as to what you should be able to do around waiting for it to sync etc.
I guess the answer is how much risk are you willing to take. I was, I believe, one of the first to say that I had lost work through keeping the live project file on DropBox and working on two computers, an MBA that I was carrying around and an MBP which was my “portable desktop”. Currently, I’m working only with the 17" MBP and lugging that around — even using a back-pack my aged frame is suffering! People here just don’t believe how much by back-pack weighs …
You say you only use one computer for working on Scrivener. I think issues you must ask yourself are: (1) what is your machine … for instance, if it’s an iMac or whatever that sits in the same location, the risk is much lower than if you use an MB/MBA/MBP and carry it around and use it in different locations with and without WiFi; (2) if you’re using a non-moving computer, do you leave it on and connected to DropBox all the time … if you do, the risk is lower as you don’t have to remember to wait for Dropbox to sync before you switch it off and walk away.
All that said, I realised only today, that for, I believe, the whole of this year or nearly — ever since the administrators of the Great Firewall of China decided that Dropbox was a danger to social stability — I have been storing a couple at least of my live projects in folders that are set to sync automatically by a similar, though Linux originated and UI-style, cloud system called SpiderOak. In SpiderOak you don’t have a single dedicated sync folder like Dropbox, but you can set up any folders you wish on your machine to sync automatically … an advantage in some ways, but that is the root of how I ended up with live projects in sync’d folders. For 6 months I was using it between the MBP and the MBA, but I have not had any problems. Since realising this, I am having to decide whether to continue, or change my system.
I think I’ll look into the auto-back-up system in Scrivener 2, and maybe keep the live projects in their current locations but have an automatic back-up set to a different, non-sync’d location on my internal hard disk … plus other back-ups of course.
I guess, if you want to keep your live project on Dropbox, you should be sort of Irish about it: Back-up early and back-up often.
Good luck!
Mark
I can only support what Mark has written above – and add that the automatic back-up in Version 2 is pretty good for your purposes, Jenny. You can choose your Dropbox folder as the recipient of your zipped back-ups, select the number of back-ups you want to keep, and check the points at which you want the back-ups to take place. Then set and forget.
I’m using a single MBP, and it will always be fully synced before disconnecting and taking with me. I fully switch off dropbox when on the go as it always uses 2 or 3 % of CPU which is pointless if I have no WiFi.
So… I think I would be safe, but will stick with my “live outside of dropbox” and “backups in dropbox” setting for a week or two at least. Now I’ve made the change there’s little reason to go back anyway.
I’ve decided to try the opposite, actually. I work between two computers and don’t want to constantly have to restore from backup when I switch computers. So I’m going to work inside Dropbox and have my backups outside Dropbox. If anything happens, at that point I will restore from the most recent backup that is on one of my computers. This way, I’m not constantly uploading huge backup files to Dropbox and I am only uploading my incremental changes every time I click Save. Which is a lot. Also, fyi, I never shut down a computer (or put it to sleep) until Dropbox is done synching. Always a good habit to keep.
That has worked fine for me for a year. I’m also compulsive about using multiple backup strategies including carrying a shirt-pocket hard drive around that is the Time Machine drive for my notebooks.
I have been using Dropbox for a couple of years with Scrivener and am now somewhat anxious about how vulnerable I might be.
Are we saying that the Syncing now built into Scrivener 2 and illustrated in the tutorials is not ‘safe’? What would be the pattern of ‘saving’ files if I don’t use my Dropbox? Would I just save it to a local drive and then sync it with Dropbox? but if I do that how is my Dropbox version ever synchronised with the version I have saved on a local drive.
Sorry if I am missing something obvious here.
What sync is demonstrated in the tutorial? I’m not sure what you mean there.
But in general, you’ll be fine with Dropbox. As mentioned up-thread, this thread is general in focus and so the problems with Dropbox have been exaggerated. I don’t think anyone has lost data by saving .scriv files in Dropbox. The only thing you really need to be aware of is:
Ensure you don’t accidentally open the same project on another computer if it is already open somewhere else. If you try to do this, Scrivener will warn you.
If you do accidentally do so, Dropbox may rename some of Scrivener’s internal files (the files inside the .scriv package).
I that happens, Scrivener 1.x may not be able to open your project. Scrivener 2.x should still open the project, though, but it is still possible it might not be able to find some internal files if Dropbox has renamed them.
In the worst case scenario of (3), you just need to contact me and I can help you get things renamed internally so they work again.
To be extra safe, I just recommend you make sure you make regular zipped backups. Do that, and try to ensure you don’t open the same project in two places, and you’re really safe with Dropbox; and if the worst happens, you shouldn’t lose data and it should be fixable. But don’t quote me on that if your computer blows up, caveat emptor, etc, etc.
All the best,
Keith
I was referring to the Scrivener 2 Basics - Folder Sync tutorial on YouTube.
That’s entirely separate and has nothing to do with the issues discussed here. Hopefully my careful answer above addressed your concerns.
Thanks Keith!