That blog post you mention stated in black and white that no estimations will be made until it is done. You seem to instead be referring to a quoted text from the change log instead. That was a regrettable thing to speculate about, I’ll admit, but taking that away as the “next estimate” is a clear misinterpretation of the actual post, and the statement we made of our policy going forward.
So knowing that, perhaps you will feel better about it all. Now it is just a missed launch date with a firm statement that our next launch date will not be calculated during the development phase, and that in addition we would no longer speculate even broadly, since some people even take estimates as being hard expectations.
Don’t, because I wasn’t talking about you. As I said, I’m generalizing the pattern that has happened for the entire time that Scrivener for Windows has been a thing.
I disagree that it is black and white in the sense of full disambiguity, given that the quoted text is from one of the two windows developers, the same one who was the one who made the last blog post, while the blog post itself caps off by the writer noting they are the developer of the mac version. This means there are two people saying two things that may or may not conflict with each other.
The quoted text and the last line aren’t even necessarily in conflict - its only weeks, not months, but no announcements of release dates -, and still aligns with what I said in my last post - that it feels like a very hopeful outlook that ultimately shouldn’t have been (publicly, at least).
But, again. That situation bothers me less (because its in the past and nothing can be done to change it) than -some- of the reasoning folks have for being so incensed at those who have a problem with it.
(Note: actual quote above can be found in off-topic flame war thread. I’m only responding to the part that is salient to the conversation before it was split off.)
I see, I meant to specifically respond to the comment that we have not posted any updates since August. You are clarifying here that the definition you are using excludes how we communicate, which is unfortunate. I’m not sure precisely what kind of updates you are looking for, but hopefully you will agree that no matter what kind of updates we do, there will always be those that feel we should be doing something different.
But we certainly do come from other sides of the realm, it seems. Myself, if I were interested in a project that was in beta, and all I got from the company was a narrative about it, I’d feel as though I wasn’t being spoken to in a substantive way. I’d rather download the beta and see how it is actually coming along as a physical, real thing, not how people paid to talk about it talk about it. I would want to contribute to their bug tracking, following the change logs religiously and spark up conversations with others on the forum; maybe even have a little contribution in how it takes final shape.
We could try to cater to “everyone” I suppose, but that’s probably not possible, and it’s not something a small team of mainly geeks is really good at doing, nor probably should be spending their time attempting, well or not. A lot of work goes into maintaining the lists and putting out regular (bi-)weekly builds, from the assembly of the installers, to updating the servers, to compiling documentation and writing any necessary summaries. In addition to keeping the reports curated and clarified for development, conversations maintained (hello), bugs tested and so forth—perhaps you can better appreciate where we spend our time, for what it is, even if it is not your cup of tea—and in that appreciation, not feel so negative about the project in general.
It’s coming along nicely but there is still more work to do, if you can’t hear that yourself from the data, then take my stating that right then, as a way of twisting your narrative and receiving an update.
Ah, it might not have been pointed out in the post, but the person writing is the closest thing to a “CEO” that this company has. So when they say there will be no future estimates, that’s really the thing to keep underscored. But as I said, ultimately I agree with you in that what was quoted was a regrettable comment considering the context. I’m not sure what else I can really add.
As solid as the Beta is… I’m actually grateful every time a new beta is released so I can keep using V3 for free, lol.
Scrivener is the best writing software available imo, so let’[s take this to the video game world that everyone keeps bringing up.
Developer: “We have developed the greatest game of all time.” Shows off game
Me: “Wow, I’ve never has this much fun playing a game. I’d be willing to pay top-dollar for this! When is it coming out?”
Dev: “We can’t say, I know it looks great over all, but if you look closely, we can’t quite get the clouds to render the way we want.”
Me: Blank Face
Dev: "So we are giving away the current version as is for free. When and if we finish, you can pay us at that point.
Me: “Okay!!!”
Also me: “Hey, Hacker Buddy… I need you to keep putting tiny bugs in Scrivener V3 for Windows so I can keep using it for free.”
For legal reasons… that last bit was clearly a joke… yay for living in the age of lawsuits.
I imagine that would have helped, as that was not something I was aware of. I also understand that no future estimates is the path that is being taken forward. I think that’s a good choice, and comes from an earnest place, with a positive future in mind.
I appreciate you being willing to engage with me. I wish for many blessings in L&L’s future, and a fruitful symbiosis between the the instruments you create and the writers who captivate with them.
Yes … and no. There have been some complaints on the forum from individuals who purchased v1 because the website said they would get v3 for free when released. This was based on the thought that v3 would be soon released (certainly not months or a year or more down the road). So, yes, some people purchased v1 in order to get v3, which they will still get once v3 is released. But this means that, in essence, these individuals did purchase v3 … in advance. Sure, they get to use v1 now (and, of course, like anyone else they can use the beta), but they purchased v1 solely because they were promised v3, else they might not have purchased v1 at all. These individuals could have spent that money on something else or saved it. Instead, they purchased Scrivener expressly to get v3.
That could conceivably be valid with a huge bit of a stretch.
Big question though, is there anyone who can say hand on heart that they only purchased based on expectation of V3 end August and V1.9 is not fit for their purpose meantime. Then can anyone say hand on heart they approached L&L with that statement requesting refund and decommission of their 1.9 licence only to have L&L refuse?
I suspect the answer is No.
Absent that I believe any suggestion of deception or being let down by L&L etc is false. I know it is disappointing the release keeps being delayed. I would like nothing more than to be using the release version, however threats to dump Scrivener just because V3 is still in beta seem spiteful or self-defeating.
But the point is not that v1.x does the job. It certainly does (despite the annoying license activation thing). There are people who have posted here saying they bought it because WinV3 was imminent, according to the blog post. The fact they received 1.9 and that it works is not the basis for their complaint. It is that the target date was not met - and the subsequent “a matter of weeks not months” was also not met. I see no issue with anyone expressing their disappointment in this.
That one is a bit of an actual stretch. No one has indicated here on the forum that I’ve seen that they requested a refund and were denied.
What? Of course people can feel let down by the issues surrounding WinV3, regardless of when they originally bought a license. There’s nothing false about that, and quite understandable, given the whole situation.
Threats to dump Scrivener and use something else? Meh, I’m not big on that, but I know it’s bred of that same disappointment. Me, I am disappointed, but I’ll just keep using the betas until whatever time it is in the future it finally goes to general relase, if that ever comes, and buy another license. I don’t see it as a big deal, but I’ve worked in tech, and I know this is the way projects go sometimes.
Hope everyone had a great day, whether you celebrate the thaksgiving holiday or not.
Not a stretch at all. My point was that I am certain if anyone approached L&L and said they only purchased based on the 30 Aug expectation and therefore wanted to stop using 1.9, have the licence cancelled and obtain a refund, L&L would probably agree.
I don’t believe you read my post correctly or misunderstood. To further clarify…
Some posters have suggested they would not have purchased if they knew V3 wouldn’t be released on or soon after Aug 30. I was trying to say if they were genuinely upset and felt their purchase was truly conditional on the release of V3 by now they could perhaps have approached L&L (within a reasonable time) for a licence cancellation and refund. L&L refusing to refund would be the only reason anyone could feel ‘dudded’ by the non arrival of V3 at this stage and I’ve not seen anyone complain of that.
As comment on this topic seems to attract ‘testy’ responses I will leave it at that.
Since a couple of customers have been unhappy about the issues with the licensing server and have suggested that L&L just forgo talking to the activation server, I would like to point out that this is one of the reasons WHY Scrivener reaches out to the licensing service – to see if the license you entered has been revoked. If they didn’t have a mechanism to ensure that a refunded license could no longer be used…would they be as willing to refund licenses?
Wasn’t v3 being offered as a free upgrade if you purchased v1 well before the end of August 2019? Wasn’t there a similar or the same offer about a year ago or so? I seem to remember someone having purchased their v1 license quite a way back and being upset that they are still waiting, a year or so later for the promised v3. If that’s the case, I don’t think it unreasonable that they are unhappy. Again, v1 is very serviceable. I use it almost daily. But that’s not the point. This individual, and others like them, bought it to get the next release, which they were lead to believe was soon going to be released.
I agree. Here’s a dumb analogy - you go to a car dealership because they are advertising a new car that looks fantastic. It’s exactly what you have been wanting and, heck, you happen to be at a point in your life where you have the money, too. When you get to the dealership, they tell you the car is still in production, but it’s release is imminent. Pay for it now and you’ll get this other car to drive around in until your new one arrives. So, why not? You get the old car to drive in the mean time, even though it’s not as cool, doesn’t have all the features the new car is said to have, and it’s not what you really want. But, hey! It does the job, right? It gets you from point A to point B just fine. Then a year goes by … and still no new car. Sure, you have a car and you are getting where you want to go, but you are not getting there in the car you want to be driving and paid for. You’re not getting there in style and you don’t have access to the features the new car is reported to have. You bought the new car and were willing to drive the old car until the new car is finally released, but you did not anticipate having to drive the old car for weeks, months, or a year or more. The release of the new car was imminent, after all. As a result, you begin to resent the old car, the dealership, and the manufacturer of the car. You feel mislead.
Technically, if the dealership said you have a serviceable car, that it does the job, they’d be right. Technically, if they said that their word is good and you’ll still get the new car, they would be right. But you’d most likely still feel cheated and possibly even lied to because they made you believe the release of the new car was going to be quite soon indeed. And it wasn’t. Maybe there were technical difficulties at the factory. Could be. Even so, perhaps the factory should not have made the offer if they weren’t absolutely positive the car could be delivered as quickly as they were letting on. Whatever the issue or issues, you would most likely be unhappy, even if the dealership fully intends to honor their word.
Yeah, it’s a dumb analogy. But the point is, the people who are upset with the v3 delay have a good enough reason to be upset despite having a perfectly serviceable copy of v1 to use for their writing. I fully expect, like the dealership in my story, L&L to deliver a fully function v3 and to honor their word to those who had purchased v1 with the expectation to get v3. I don’t think anyone believes otherwise. But just because this is the case does not mean some people should not be upset over the situation. It’s simple. They bought with an expectation and that expectation was not met.
Argentart, you still miss my point. If they are that disappointed, feel hard done by or ‘tricked’ into buying 1.9 on expectation of imminent V3, they could always have asked for a refund. I can’t imagine L&L would have said no.
It’s a bit like getting a bad hotel room or lousy meal. Speak up at the time, demand a refund or a move or shut up. No point bitching to all and sundry 4 months later.
Now I really will go for a walk and stay off this thread.
yes, I‘m visiting this forum and the blog frequently, hoping v.3 is out now.
And yes, my inner patience is strained, too.
But let me ask you: Aren’t we, the writers, those ones, who should hold the banner of patience up high in our modern and fast running times? Aren’t we the ones, who should set more slo mo thinking into this stressed up world? Aren’t books (our products) that key media, that central counterweight of our hectic life?
Scrivener 1 is a superb piece of software, helping us to set free our ideas. So, why shouldn’t we able to wait, untill v.3 is as perfect as we need it. (Remember: When you are in the flow of writing, noting would be worse than something that pulls you out, as a buggy software does.).
And a final word: I‘m writing since 2008 on my main novel, and it’s still not finished, too. Yes, one reason is, that I‘m no professional all-time writer. But the missing v.3 of Scrivener isn’t the reason. (Hopely) Good things need their time.
I don’t know if this is a dumb analogy, but I’m sure it’s not quite an accurate one. The accurate analogy would not be that the car dealer says, “Pay for the upcoming model now, and drive this older one in the meantime,” but if they would say, “Buy this older model car at its usual price now, and you’ll get the new model for free when it’s done.” That would be a pretty irresistible deal, assuming the current model works well.
That is a good, straightforward post. If I were editing it, though, I would reword “reality couldn’t be further from the truth”–albeit I really like that absurd little clause. A quick search finds it all over the Internet, and incisively dissected by Mark Liberman at https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1350
Thank you, pquadrat! That is the wisest thing said in these threads by far.
Apologies if my multipurpose post confuses anyone!
Unfortunately, that’s ‘goodnight’ from me. Decided to walk away from Scrivener today after another beta expired and continued delays on the release.
Look, I get it. We want a good product, you want a good product, they want a good product. But at the same time… we’re going into year 3 here. I purchased Scrivener ages ago and only started looking because of the rise of UHD screens (which made Scrivener’s text too blurry, despite trying multiple workarounds which all failed). But I held off and have been continuing to download the [many] beta releases of Scrivener 3.0, waiting patiently for the official rollout.
But enough’s enough. There are hungrier developers, companies, and programs out there who are filling the void a bit faster than you guys. And while I appreciate what you’ve made and the efforts you’re taking, I’m out.
Discussed? Hardly. At best, a statement was made that there will be no more potential release dates published. That’s not a discussion. From my perspective, L&L hasn’t posted anything in this forum hat’s in any form close to a discussion.
