Just about out of patience

Characterizing L&L’s current stance as “told to expect nothing” is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst.

It has been shown over the course of the lifetime of Scrivener for Windows that people are going to complain no matter what L&L does because they feel entitled to something, no matter HOW L&L tries to set the expectations. No matter how carefully worded the blog post, no matter how many times they use terms like “estimated”, there is always a vocal minority who let slip with the raging entitlement and come in with toxic attacks.

We’ve put out almost a dozen updates since then, and have closed hundreds of tickets. The software is progressing very well, both internally and publicly. This “vacuum” you speak of seems to be largely rhetorical, care to explain what you mean by that? I can attest to one thing, this “get a handle on the narrative” isn’t something I’ve ever been a fan of. Sounds like politics and spin to me. I’d rather just get work done.

As to the rest, I’m not really sure who you are speaking about to be honest, but that doesn’t sound like a very productive or interesting line of conversation to me. Let’s talk about the software, and how that’s going on, not who is worse than whom (that goes nowhere good). Thank you.

I’m new here but I’m long in the tooth with computers & software. It appears the crux of the issue is whether, for whatever reason, there is a need for an official production version as opposed to continuing to use a beta version that is by and large stable but requires periodic refresh.

I don’t know L&L’s criteria for when V3 will be considered production ready. Others here have testified that they’ve been using the beta versions productively without major problems. By comparison some vendors will ship software if there are only a few obscure problems that few users are expected to encounter and decide to fix those in updates. I’ve productively used open source software that is still to reach V1 status even after several years.

There is a natural suspicion to the quality and stability of software identified as beta but it seems by now any major issues have been worked out. My approach is if I can be productive with the current beta to go ahead and use it even if I need to periodically refresh, although I may use a little extra backup just to be sure. So as others have mentioned, you have V1 and V3 beta is available free of charge, is it all that important when they slap the official V3 tag on it?

Mainly, completion of the core design, and the parity between interface and functionality. When we had to delay the the launch a few months ago, the main problem was that a very significant majority of the GUI in the compiler wasn’t wired up yet. Obviously, we couldn’t release that. :slight_smile:

The other problem is that what was wired up wasn’t yet working to core design specifications, broadly speaking. We’re talking stuff like having the ebook output produce a valid ebook that reacts to the settings you provide, or being able to compile footnotes at all, etc. Again, not problems you can have in software you sell.

Of course we knew we’d get no end of people piling on and telling us how bad we are as a result, and we know we’re going to continue getting that until the end—that’s the choice we made, and there will never be a shortage of people who prefer that mode of discourse. It should be obvious to anyone with an ethical bone in their body though, which choice is the correct one. Heck, even if you aren’t much on ethics, arguably releasing prototype code and selling it could actually lead to legal problems, not just people eager to lodge complaints about development speeds or what have you.

Indeed that is almost always necessary to some degree. Given the delays, we’ll probably have to have more of those kinds of things that I personally would like to see, but that’s just how it goes. It’s going to be a long time before it’s “done” (in the foggy sense that software never is). The goal for 3.0 though, is being able to do what’s printed on the tin. That’s just simple, logical necessity, and I don’t think many would seriously debate that.

I think you’ve highlighted one of the problems, in fact. Scrivener is far larger than most people realise, it is an extremely ambitious project. Look at its user manual, and now consider that the one you see when hitting F1 has nearly 250 pages of redacted text in it on account of things that weren’t working at the time (excepting stuff that will always be Mac specific, like support for the programmable OLED touch strip above the keyboard on their laptops). For those who never encounter those areas in the missing pages, they might be utterly baffled as to what we’re going on about—after all, it still had 600 pages of user manual, and that’s an awful lot of software, one can use it for years without straying outside of that realm. :slight_smile:

But here’s a simple one for you:

  1. Create a new blank project and paste several paragraphs of lorem ipsum into the starter file.
  2. Click into the second paragraph and set it to “Block Quote”.
  3. Load File ▸ Compile….
  4. Select the “Modern” compile format in the left sidebar, and assign the stock section type in use to the “Section Text” layout, in the middle column.
  5. Compile to RTF, and open in any word processor.

If you’re a biographer, well, you can see how this might cause problems! In this case the font family didn’t override, though it should have while leaving the custom indenting intact (and not mangled), but that’s just one problem on the docket. The full integration between the stylesheet system and how it passes through and is optionally transformed by the compiler is very complex, particularly where we get into the permutations of combinations of these features. And these solutions sometimes require custom outfitting for each output type. What styles do to an ePub file (generating CSS classes and automatically generated attributes, along with the ability to code your own—all only recently made possible) is totally different than what they should do to RTF files, or Markdown files.

Indeed that is true and expected. But one thing we’ve done a good job of so far I think is in stability. What is there is pretty solid. For a program this complex and still under heavy construction you would very rightly expect crashes and data loss bugs now and then—but look around, you won’t find many. I test with it daily and extensively, and it it is very rare I hit a serious issue like that—and my definition of data loss is very broad: I include stuff like the colour of your annotations getting lost, since one might use blue, red and green comments for strong and important semantic purposes, meant to communicate to future versions of themselves for years to come.

But keep those backups—and keep doing it when it goes gold as well. I don’t use any piece of software without backups upon backups upon backups. It’s not just the software I’m protecting myself from, but the hardware, the operating system, the weather and even my own foolishness (perhaps primarily so).

Anyway, thanks for stopping by the forum.

I take issue with this only because the blog set the expectation of August, with the subsequent August delay post quoting “I do believe we are a matter of a few weeks away now - I’m certainly not talking months.”, which was almost 3 months ago.

Its fine. If it is worse to release what they have now, they shouldn’t release it yet. And I don’t think they deserve any sort of retribution for missing their ‘estimated’ release dates.

But I don’t feel that those two blog posts were very ‘carefully worded’. One was explicitly spelled out, about as close to a promise as you can get, the other a be-at-ease sort of too-optimistic outlook. Aside from the insight into the developmental issues, which is valuable, they otherwise have ended up as meaningless. Heartfelt, I fully believe, but ash spilling between fingers in the end.

And its less that I want to hold L&L to eternal blame for this sort of thing; Moreso that I’m put off by people who consider L&L blameless and who consider any who have complaints or a bad taste about this situation to be completely lacking in merit.

Some folks seem to be forgetting that the original expected release date was “Q1 2019” for the longest time on the Scrivener 3 for Windows page.

Regardless, no one has paid for it yet, so throwing tantrums because they haven’t met projected deadlines yet serves no purpose.

That blog post you mention stated in black and white that no estimations will be made until it is done. You seem to instead be referring to a quoted text from the change log instead. That was a regrettable thing to speculate about, I’ll admit, but taking that away as the “next estimate” is a clear misinterpretation of the actual post, and the statement we made of our policy going forward.

So knowing that, perhaps you will feel better about it all. Now it is just a missed launch date with a firm statement that our next launch date will not be calculated during the development phase, and that in addition we would no longer speculate even broadly, since some people even take estimates as being hard expectations.

Don’t, because I wasn’t talking about you. As I said, I’m generalizing the pattern that has happened for the entire time that Scrivener for Windows has been a thing.

I disagree that it is black and white in the sense of full disambiguity, given that the quoted text is from one of the two windows developers, the same one who was the one who made the last blog post, while the blog post itself caps off by the writer noting they are the developer of the mac version. This means there are two people saying two things that may or may not conflict with each other.

The quoted text and the last line aren’t even necessarily in conflict - its only weeks, not months, but no announcements of release dates -, and still aligns with what I said in my last post - that it feels like a very hopeful outlook that ultimately shouldn’t have been (publicly, at least).

But, again. That situation bothers me less (because its in the past and nothing can be done to change it) than -some- of the reasoning folks have for being so incensed at those who have a problem with it.

(Note: actual quote above can be found in off-topic flame war thread. I’m only responding to the part that is salient to the conversation before it was split off.)

I see, I meant to specifically respond to the comment that we have not posted any updates since August. You are clarifying here that the definition you are using excludes how we communicate, which is unfortunate. I’m not sure precisely what kind of updates you are looking for, but hopefully you will agree that no matter what kind of updates we do, there will always be those that feel we should be doing something different.

But we certainly do come from other sides of the realm, it seems. Myself, if I were interested in a project that was in beta, and all I got from the company was a narrative about it, I’d feel as though I wasn’t being spoken to in a substantive way. I’d rather download the beta and see how it is actually coming along as a physical, real thing, not how people paid to talk about it talk about it. I would want to contribute to their bug tracking, following the change logs religiously and spark up conversations with others on the forum; maybe even have a little contribution in how it takes final shape.

We could try to cater to “everyone” I suppose, but that’s probably not possible, and it’s not something a small team of mainly geeks is really good at doing, nor probably should be spending their time attempting, well or not. A lot of work goes into maintaining the lists and putting out regular (bi-)weekly builds, from the assembly of the installers, to updating the servers, to compiling documentation and writing any necessary summaries. In addition to keeping the reports curated and clarified for development, conversations maintained (hello), bugs tested and so forth—perhaps you can better appreciate where we spend our time, for what it is, even if it is not your cup of tea—and in that appreciation, not feel so negative about the project in general.

It’s coming along nicely but there is still more work to do, if you can’t hear that yourself from the data, then take my stating that right then, as a way of twisting your narrative and receiving an update.

Ah, it might not have been pointed out in the post, but the person writing is the closest thing to a “CEO” that this company has. So when they say there will be no future estimates, that’s really the thing to keep underscored. But as I said, ultimately I agree with you in that what was quoted was a regrettable comment considering the context. I’m not sure what else I can really add. :slight_smile:

As solid as the Beta is… I’m actually grateful every time a new beta is released so I can keep using V3 for free, lol.

Scrivener is the best writing software available imo, so let’[s take this to the video game world that everyone keeps bringing up.

Developer: “We have developed the greatest game of all time.” Shows off game
Me: “Wow, I’ve never has this much fun playing a game. I’d be willing to pay top-dollar for this! When is it coming out?”
Dev: “We can’t say, I know it looks great over all, but if you look closely, we can’t quite get the clouds to render the way we want.”
Me: Blank Face
Dev: "So we are giving away the current version as is for free. When and if we finish, you can pay us at that point.
Me: “Okay!!!”

Also me: “Hey, Hacker Buddy… I need you to keep putting tiny bugs in Scrivener V3 for Windows so I can keep using it for free.”

For legal reasons… that last bit was clearly a joke… yay for living in the age of lawsuits.

I imagine that would have helped, as that was not something I was aware of. I also understand that no future estimates is the path that is being taken forward. I think that’s a good choice, and comes from an earnest place, with a positive future in mind.

I appreciate you being willing to engage with me. I wish for many blessings in L&L’s future, and a fruitful symbiosis between the the instruments you create and the writers who captivate with them.

Yes … and no. There have been some complaints on the forum from individuals who purchased v1 because the website said they would get v3 for free when released. This was based on the thought that v3 would be soon released (certainly not months or a year or more down the road). So, yes, some people purchased v1 in order to get v3, which they will still get once v3 is released. But this means that, in essence, these individuals did purchase v3 … in advance. Sure, they get to use v1 now (and, of course, like anyone else they can use the beta), but they purchased v1 solely because they were promised v3, else they might not have purchased v1 at all. These individuals could have spent that money on something else or saved it. Instead, they purchased Scrivener expressly to get v3.

Don’t want to start a fight or anything but…

That could conceivably be valid with a huge bit of a stretch.

Big question though, is there anyone who can say hand on heart that they only purchased based on expectation of V3 end August and V1.9 is not fit for their purpose meantime. Then can anyone say hand on heart they approached L&L with that statement requesting refund and decommission of their 1.9 licence only to have L&L refuse?

I suspect the answer is No.

Absent that I believe any suggestion of deception or being let down by L&L etc is false. I know it is disappointing the release keeps being delayed. I would like nothing more than to be using the release version, however threats to dump Scrivener just because V3 is still in beta seem spiteful or self-defeating.

But the point is not that v1.x does the job. It certainly does (despite the annoying license activation thing). There are people who have posted here saying they bought it because WinV3 was imminent, according to the blog post. The fact they received 1.9 and that it works is not the basis for their complaint. It is that the target date was not met - and the subsequent “a matter of weeks not months” was also not met. I see no issue with anyone expressing their disappointment in this.

That one is a bit of an actual stretch. No one has indicated here on the forum that I’ve seen that they requested a refund and were denied.

What? Of course people can feel let down by the issues surrounding WinV3, regardless of when they originally bought a license. There’s nothing false about that, and quite understandable, given the whole situation.

Threats to dump Scrivener and use something else? Meh, I’m not big on that, but I know it’s bred of that same disappointment. Me, I am disappointed, but I’ll just keep using the betas until whatever time it is in the future it finally goes to general relase, if that ever comes, and buy another license. I don’t see it as a big deal, but I’ve worked in tech, and I know this is the way projects go sometimes.

Hope everyone had a great day, whether you celebrate the thaksgiving holiday or not.

Not a stretch at all. My point was that I am certain if anyone approached L&L and said they only purchased based on the 30 Aug expectation and therefore wanted to stop using 1.9, have the licence cancelled and obtain a refund, L&L would probably agree.

I don’t believe you read my post correctly or misunderstood. To further clarify…

Some posters have suggested they would not have purchased if they knew V3 wouldn’t be released on or soon after Aug 30. I was trying to say if they were genuinely upset and felt their purchase was truly conditional on the release of V3 by now they could perhaps have approached L&L (within a reasonable time) for a licence cancellation and refund. L&L refusing to refund would be the only reason anyone could feel ‘dudded’ by the non arrival of V3 at this stage and I’ve not seen anyone complain of that.

As comment on this topic seems to attract ‘testy’ responses I will leave it at that.

Since a couple of customers have been unhappy about the issues with the licensing server and have suggested that L&L just forgo talking to the activation server, I would like to point out that this is one of the reasons WHY Scrivener reaches out to the licensing service – to see if the license you entered has been revoked. If they didn’t have a mechanism to ensure that a refunded license could no longer be used…would they be as willing to refund licenses?

Wasn’t v3 being offered as a free upgrade if you purchased v1 well before the end of August 2019? Wasn’t there a similar or the same offer about a year ago or so? I seem to remember someone having purchased their v1 license quite a way back and being upset that they are still waiting, a year or so later for the promised v3. If that’s the case, I don’t think it unreasonable that they are unhappy. Again, v1 is very serviceable. I use it almost daily. But that’s not the point. This individual, and others like them, bought it to get the next release, which they were lead to believe was soon going to be released.

I agree. Here’s a dumb analogy - you go to a car dealership because they are advertising a new car that looks fantastic. It’s exactly what you have been wanting and, heck, you happen to be at a point in your life where you have the money, too. When you get to the dealership, they tell you the car is still in production, but it’s release is imminent. Pay for it now and you’ll get this other car to drive around in until your new one arrives. So, why not? You get the old car to drive in the mean time, even though it’s not as cool, doesn’t have all the features the new car is said to have, and it’s not what you really want. But, hey! It does the job, right? It gets you from point A to point B just fine. Then a year goes by … and still no new car. Sure, you have a car and you are getting where you want to go, but you are not getting there in the car you want to be driving and paid for. You’re not getting there in style and you don’t have access to the features the new car is reported to have. You bought the new car and were willing to drive the old car until the new car is finally released, but you did not anticipate having to drive the old car for weeks, months, or a year or more. The release of the new car was imminent, after all. As a result, you begin to resent the old car, the dealership, and the manufacturer of the car. You feel mislead.

Technically, if the dealership said you have a serviceable car, that it does the job, they’d be right. Technically, if they said that their word is good and you’ll still get the new car, they would be right. But you’d most likely still feel cheated and possibly even lied to because they made you believe the release of the new car was going to be quite soon indeed. And it wasn’t. Maybe there were technical difficulties at the factory. Could be. Even so, perhaps the factory should not have made the offer if they weren’t absolutely positive the car could be delivered as quickly as they were letting on. Whatever the issue or issues, you would most likely be unhappy, even if the dealership fully intends to honor their word.

Yeah, it’s a dumb analogy. But the point is, the people who are upset with the v3 delay have a good enough reason to be upset despite having a perfectly serviceable copy of v1 to use for their writing. I fully expect, like the dealership in my story, L&L to deliver a fully function v3 and to honor their word to those who had purchased v1 with the expectation to get v3. I don’t think anyone believes otherwise. But just because this is the case does not mean some people should not be upset over the situation. It’s simple. They bought with an expectation and that expectation was not met.

Now before anyone gets all bitter and twisted, blog post by L&L.

They are being up front about it so give credit…

https://www.literatureandlatte.com/blog/scrivener-3-for-windows-development-update?fbclid=IwAR2FhLfEPuZq8Cah1ZZKkZa89A-JmSDy631CqauslUw18ptgAxYNEB4kU1Q

Argentart, you still miss my point. If they are that disappointed, feel hard done by or ‘tricked’ into buying 1.9 on expectation of imminent V3, they could always have asked for a refund. I can’t imagine L&L would have said no.

It’s a bit like getting a bad hotel room or lousy meal. Speak up at the time, demand a refund or a move or shut up. No point bitching to all and sundry 4 months later.

Now I really will go for a walk and stay off this thread.

My dear authors,

yes, I‘m visiting this forum and the blog frequently, hoping v.3 is out now.
And yes, my inner patience is strained, too.
But let me ask you: Aren’t we, the writers, those ones, who should hold the banner of patience up high in our modern and fast running times? Aren’t we the ones, who should set more slo mo thinking into this stressed up world? Aren’t books (our products) that key media, that central counterweight of our hectic life?
Scrivener 1 is a superb piece of software, helping us to set free our ideas. So, why shouldn’t we able to wait, untill v.3 is as perfect as we need it. (Remember: When you are in the flow of writing, noting would be worse than something that pulls you out, as a buggy software does.).

And a final word: I‘m writing since 2008 on my main novel, and it’s still not finished, too. Yes, one reason is, that I‘m no professional all-time writer. But the missing v.3 of Scrivener isn’t the reason. (Hopely) Good things need their time. :wink:

I wish you a good flow, writer or developer.