Yes, there is one MacOS and iOS developer, and yes, he outpaces the two Windows developers. The reason is the rather amazing Cocoa framework which you have at your fingertips when developing MacOS and iOS applications. It provides not only immensely useful GUI parts, but also internal wiring and event handling which is truly outstanding. Windows provides nothing that compares. At all. And no third party library is even close to the power and polish of Cocoa.
That’s the magic sauce, and that is why the Windows application will always be lagging behind. The Windows team have selected a great framework to use, Qt, and that provides some of what Scrivener needs - but much needs to be coded from scratch. On MacOS and iOS it does not have to be coded from scratch. It’s all there, in Cocoa.
Yes. Cocoa really is that much better than anything on Windows. It’s really astounding. It all hails back to the NeXT platform which Jobs started developing in the 80’s. We’re talking 30 years of focused development by a great team at NeXT and then Apple. That’s not easy to catch up to.
Firstly, for a Mic Drop to have any impact you need to know what you’re talking about, so major fail. I can see a number of posts by Win users immediately prior to your rant that have no comment from Mac users. Why? Because they have said they are happy with what they paid for (V1.9), yes, said they are disappointed with the V3 delay but haven’t piled on the poor Win developer team and demanded ‘consequences’, made empty threats of going elsewhere etc etc.
As for your comment about Mac users, if you check many of those posting, myself included use Mac and Win, so we know both sides. Yes, we’d all like V3 out now, but understand the challenges of developing complex software.
Most of the comments aimed at those complaining was about the downright abrupt, even rude manner with demands for ‘consequences’, demands to throw more developers at the problem (usually a recipe for even more protracted development). No-one has issue with people being disappointed with the delay, but a little decency and respect goes a long way.
As has been pointed out MANY times, Win users purchased 1.9 and they have in it a fully functional program. If they purchased after late 2017, they will get a FREE upgrade to V3, something to be appreciative of, not get all snotty about. I purchased much earlier than that and will happily pay for the upgrade, without moaning or insulting the L&L staff.
So, I shall remain in the Win boards, and have no issues with Mac only users being here and contributing (which they do regularly).
For (a few) Win users to try and segregate the Win boards for only them smacks of everything you are accusing Mac users of. Try lurking in the Mac boards, strangely enough you might learn things in advance of the availability of Win V3. We won’t try to claim the boards as only for Mac users
I’m disappointed as well, and I am also a realist. But it’s irritating to have them say “Yes, this date, finally!” only to see it slip away. I’d prefer they just not set a date a get peoples’ expectations up if they cannot make deadlines (which, based on the history of this, they cannot).
She’s right about that, and I do not agree with the things people are saying about accountability in that fashion. I am referring to her rude remarks to people that are in line with what the (usually) Mac users saying to people asking about the Winv3 release.
“You guys” is a couple of people. The rest of us don’t give a single shit if Lee shows up in the forums.
Sure, dude. I have yet to find a single loyalist that is anything but rude and insulting to anyone asking about v3 or just chiming in with their disappointment that yet another deadline has come and gone.
Way to provide a terrific example of exactly what people are talking about when they dare say word one about their disappointment, frustration, or just ask a question about when v3 will be delivered, if ever.
It isn’t a personal attack. It is an observation on the way she replies to people as the public face of L&L in this forum. You’re free to read it the way you want. But things like this:
ARE rude. There’s no call for it. At all.
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I wouldn’t call Katherine’s comments rude, perhaps verbalising frustration at what are unreasonable attacks on L&L staff from one or two. Could she be a little more tactful? Perhaps, but if I’d been in her or Lee’s position with demands for ‘consequences’ suggestions of lying, called incompetent by some, I might have been tempted to say even more to one or two.
But then I’m beyond retiring age and if the boss fired me for saying that ‘even more’ I’d just shrug my shoulders and go have another attempt at retirement.
My take on this, having hung out in the Windows forums for several years, is that rude, insulting, and sometimes personal expressions of a frustration that is, in itself, quite understandable, finally pushed even the normally patient and rational Katherine over the edge. You might try looking at some of her over 5,000 posts in other threads before labeling her.
I don’t know the timeframe, personally. The blog said "I do believe we are a matter of a few weeks away now - I’m certainly not talking months. " That is, of course, not a promise, but an earnest belief, I feel.
However, if it ends up being many months, I feel an in-depth explanation of what problems they are facing as a blog post would be nice. It would soften the blow of these foggy release dates and would be the closest thing I could say that anyone with a V3 license would be “owed” in exchange for continued gentle patience.
Just another thing I’d like to note - I absolutely love Scrivener 1.9 . I have a license that predates the introduction of V3 inclusion, and I’m fine with that - I’m eager and waiting to give L&L more money for V3. Its something I look forward to.
I want V3, a whole bunch, but aside from checking the website every so often, I hadn’t been thinking of it much and placed it upon the back-burner as a “Check if its out, it isn’t, move on, check again in a few months.” sort of thing.
It was the blog post that really got my hopes up, and subsequently let them down. I don’t want any sort of punishment, or anyone to be affected negatively or to lose their jobs (my 2c to the whole “personal responsibility” thing).
Its just I want to make it clear that I wasn’t bothered by waiting before that blog post said there wouldn’t be anymore waiting. Then it bothered me when more waiting happened.
I’m still super interested in V3, and will still buy it whenever it comes out. Just, if the followup blog post ends up also not matching reality, I would appreciate a detailed subsequent blog as to why it ended up that way.
I only speak for myself, and nobody owes me anything. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.
It is quite frustrating that Scrivener 3 for Windows is taking so long to come out, however when people say that the beta is pretty close to the complete product, they mean pretty close. I think it would be worth downloading and trying the beta. I can’t remember if the Beta is free to use (I think it is). But it isn’t a permanent product and will expire when they decide to release the Scrivener 3 (whenever that will eventually be). So you could still recommend the product to your friends/acquaintances although they’ll probably have to be warned of the unreliable release dates (which I understand is due to some finetuning or something, as the beta is working pretty well for me so far). Also not sure if someone has already said this to you.
I wrote them, so yes, I have. Unlike you, I’m not calling people “ranters” or “complainers” or “whiners” or “failed writers”.
"Having followed the discussions in the user forum for quite some time I wonder if the true problem has nothing to do with the differences between the two versions. The problem is that the ranters have problems writing, and instead of realizing that the problem lies within themselves they want to have some external factor to blame.
When Win Scrivener 3 is officially released, what will you then blame for your inability to finish that novel you have been working on for so long?"
I am, however, pointing out that anyone who even dreams of saying something with even a whiff of VALID criticism gets taken down by certain people in this forum, and may get a rude remark by someone representing the company itself. You think that’s ok? Good for you. I don’t.
Yes, of course.
What is ”valid criticism”?
In what way are posts that only present the poster’s personal feelings of disappointment, or anger, or frustration that Win version 3 is not officially released, examples of ”valid criticism”?
That’s rich. Calling those who choose to defend L&L ranters when the whole discussion started with a number of ‘rants’ about L&L, demands for consequences etc.
A couple of those you are accusing of ranting were criticised for saying that those who were complaining were using it as an excuse for not writing and now you are levelling the same accusation against those who chose to object to some of you and other posts. Think about it, we are the ones who are quite happily working with Beta 3 and while wishing for a speedy release acknowledge the challenges of development. So you claim doesn’t pass the smell test.
valid criticism is welcomed by L&L and staff (and no, Katherine was NOT rude) but the hysteria from some who attacked L&L, demanded consequences, demanded a change to a whole new dev platform etc was not valid criticism, it was a dummy spit.
Do I think V3 is taking longer than I would like, Yes!
But I am not an L&L staffer, I’m not privy to the challenges. Rather than throw my dummy and toys out of the cot and scream the house down I prefer to try in some tiny way to assist the development with feedback on actual issues I encounter in the beta use.
As a user of the Mac version, I respect the frustration of people waiting for their Windows V3. As long as they do it respectfully, it’s fine.
I think Keith put out a beautiful response in this thread, kudos for that.
I just posted to say to the people being dissapointed with the missing deadlines: I understand the pain (we were waiting long for the iOS version as well - when you love a product and you get excited about it, waiting and frustrations also hit you double as hard) but it’s maybe not bad to keep in mind that Apple, the richest company in the world with a probably very bright team of hundreds (if not thousands) of coders, is also missing deadlines of their iOS 13 software, pushing back a lot of features to 13.1 and 13.2. They did this the past 2 years as well. Software is complex, and is getting more complex all the time. Admittedly as a non-coder, I can’t imagine the job to build all the tools for Windows to make a Scrivener version work, if you see how many tools Apple gives their developers for free (as many people here have pointed out - a lot of great Mac-only software is made by developers who always profess they could only make it work because Apple has made a lot of work easy for them).
Again, a 200 billion dollar company, asking thousands of dollars for their hardware, has been missing a lot of their software deadlines the past years. It’s not an excuse, because L&L are definitely to blame for the frustration, but think about their scale, the niche audience of their product, and them asking a one-time fee of just a couple of ten’s of euros for their product. It must be hard at times with a lot of enthusiasm and idealism involved sometimes.
I also think we should keep vile comments to a minimum or zero if possible (it’s never possible), from both sides of the argument. We are all passionate about the product. These things happen. As someone who is not affected by these delays, I do feel for the fans being disappointed (again) but I also feel for the developers. I’m sure they feel bad enough as it is already, they didn’t want this to happen, and in these (hopefully) final weeks of testing and finishing, I think morally and mentally they could use a lot of cheerleading and a good boost of support instead of people attacking each other on the forum. So they can feel energetic about the wonderful project again, which is probably not easy in such difficult times of setbacks.
A very good point, not to mention that Microsoft, another almost trillion dollar company has screwed up pretty much every Win 10 upgrade over the past couple of years with bricked PC’s and far greater issues than there are in Scrivener. What has been the public reaction to that? A shrug of the shoulders and ‘it’s Microsoft’.
Seems we hold a small band of enthusiasts to a higher standard and demand more accountability than we do of MS, Adobe or Apple.
You really, really need to brush up on your reading comprehension. THE POINT is that I, myself, am not calling people “ranters”. That part - in quotes - is from lunk, being just as defensive and cultish as you are being to anyone who dares to raise a criticism in this forum.
I am quite happy working with the beta releases. I’ve no idea why you’re so obtuse about what I am writing versus what others are writing - like someone “threatening” L&:'s business, which you attributed to me instead of the person who actually said anything remotely like it, or like someone trying to call me out about “the tone” of my posts when he’s one of your comrades in arms, and running down people who offer up anything less than a glowing opinion.
Yeah, dude, she IS rude from time to time. it’s unprofessional, as is allowing the dogpile cohort here pile on people. I found a quote from her - ironically - that said the rule of the forum is to “be nice”. Perhaps L&L should start with her and include the usual suspects who are doing L&L zero favors with their actions.
Why is it NOT valid criticism? L&L (finally) gave a date for the release - a hard date. Then, as is usual, they let that deadline whoosh right by. I think it’s entirely valid for people to voice their disappointment and frustration with yet another delay. And there have been valid suggestions - I, for one, suggested that they not post release dates at all, given their history. Do you not think this is a valid criticism and comment? It is. And don’t pretend you’re not one of the people launching attacks at “ranters” and “complainers”. The part you left out of my reply was from one of your own posts, bitching at people you think suck as writers just because they are looking for something about when (or if, at this point) WinV3 will ever be released. If Katherine insists that the one rule in this forum is to “be nice”, then L&L is failing at making that happen, too.
Which is all fine and good…but some people have moved beyond that to personal attacks. There is a line between “I’m really frustrated” and “wow, you guys are jerks and deserve to go out of business.”
There is also the problem that no matter how L&L have stated their dates in the past, there is a sizeable minority of people who see it as an iron-clad promise (rather than an estimated date, a progress update) and use it as an excuse to create a new account and start attacking L&L.
Not releasing dates at all has been their stated policy for several years now, but ironically in this circumstance, the only reason we got the date in that blog post at all is become of some toxic Windows beta testers who didn’t want to accept that policy. Lee and Tiho were trying to communicate in good faith, and boy will they never make that mistake again.
Yes, L&L has made communication mistakes in the past, and I am sure they will do so again. They are only human. But at the end of the day, guys, this is just software. Nice software, but not life-or-death software. Software that has been deliberately engineered so that you can hit the eject button on it at any moment. There is no justification for the level of vitriol some people are prepared to throw at L&L for every little disappointment that comes their way. And until some of y’all recognize that L&L’s mistakes don’t justify the inevitable and depressingly predictable crap-storm that comes their way, and learn how to police the worst of your responses, there will continue to be those of us who stand up and defend L&L, because, damn, get some perspective already.
We agree on this: there’s no call for that sort of thing. Nobody is dying from L&L not meeting a deadline. It’s annoying, and a bit frustrating, but not life ending.
I’ve not really seen anyone attcking the foundation of the L&L castle except in the post about drawing and quartering the developers as some kind of responsibility penance. I’ve seen plenty of people voicing their disappointment. I don’t think that’s attacking L&L, though.
They made other “this quarter” date sets, too, without specificity. That’s part of the issue here. I’ve been around software development, and I know it can be a pain in the ass when there are people eagerly awaiting the widget. But I don’t get repeatedly setting a date - even an -ish date - for the release of the widget if there’s a history of not meeting dates in the first place - and I think we can agree that said history exists here. It simply winds people up and then sets them off when the date comes and goes without the widget being released. There’s no reason for L&L to cave to a few people who think they’re owed the world, because if those people start acting fools of themselves while everyone else is reasonable, it’s clear who is being boneheaded.
It isn’t a matter of “defending” L&L. It’s the part where some people just immediately dogpile on someone regardless of what they are saying and how they say it - accusing them of being failed writers or blaming the tool or just procrastinating or whatever - when all that person is doing is asking about a release that L&L themselves have said is in sight and then being disappointed. The people demanding body parts from the developers are obvious outliers, and L&L could step in at any time to deal with that. Most of what I’ve read in here is just people pointing out things like yet another missed date or the lack of parity between Mac and Windows (which was something L&L themselves said they were working toward), and so on.
Not everyone is saying the castle should be razed and the boats burned to the waterline, just as not every defender of L&L is immediately being bitchy to people voicing their opinions. But it makes for a difficult environment, and I’ve no doubt it turns people off Scrivener, which is not something I want, because I (selfishly) want them to continue making the widget.
So, as of right now, we’re in the same place as we were well before this thread was even started. People have voiced their concerns, their criticisms, and their frustrations over the missed deadline. Why, then, do they KEEP SAYING THE SAME THINGS? Over and over and over again comes this familiar refrain. Yes, we know what you’re going to say, because you’ve already said it SEVEN TIMES. They missed the date. It’s done. In the past. Behind us. You’ve complained about it (deservedly so, to be honest). And those complaints should get behind us, as well. Complaining yet again about the same thing when nothing has changed since the last time you complained is a waste of your time. Unless the complaining is the real reason you’re here?
