I and others suggested that you have a perfectly fine (much better than Google docs) writing environment in 1.9 and time spent bitching by some could be productively used actually writing.
No toxic environment and if you check, the only pushback was for those who attacked L&L and their staff. Those who politely expressed disappointment, but understood reality (myself included) were not pushed back against.
If you look at the overwhelming content of the L&L forums you will find friendly, polite, helpful discourse with Mac and Win users helping each other freely.
I’ve said it before, storming off to use a markedly inferior (for the type of writing Scrivener is designed for) product to prove a point is a bit of ‘cutting off nose to spite face’.
As for making threats of using your ‘writing skills’ to tell everyone why you left Scrivener, isn’t that sinking to the same or even greater depths you accuse forum members of??? You’re threatening to harm Scrivener because your feelings were hurt by some blunt talk. (NOT by L&L staff, I should emphasise)
Did you read this thread at all? Or do you just willingly turn a blind eye to your compatriots and their jibes at people? This is just from this thread. There is other crap just like this in other threads.
I swear, sometimes it’s like wandering into a cult here.
“But don’t blame your failure as a writer on Scrivener”
Checked back and yes, missed a couple of such comments. Looking at one in particular seemed the poster being referred to was claiming they couldn’t write due to the delay in V3 where they had 1.9, so the comment was somewhat BS. The poster was being called on that, perhaps a bit harshly, however it was accurate to the extent, they could write, and claiming they couldn’t seemed an excuse for innaction.
It did seem another might have committed ‘production’ work to V3 in anticipation of release despite L&L warning not to use beta for that (not to mention common sense).
So, despite those two, still no sign of claimed trolls or any poor culture.
Your reply ignored my point about the overwhelming supportive culture in all boards. You pointed out I missed a couple of posts you feel prove your point, you seem to be missing or dismissing thousands that disprove it.
My closing point remains, you were threatening to go to an inferior solution and more importantly and patently nasty, attack L&L’s business just because your nose was out of joint by a few people who called out the attacks on L&L and their staff.
Perhaps one of the “guilty” parties here, but I’ve been using the new beta since 7. Have I ever used ALL of any versions of Scrivener’s features? NO! I do not.
I use Send To Kindle to proof multiple times on a tablet and a phone. These proofing files are compiled by Scrivener into a .doc for upload using Send To Kindle. Nothing easier than that.
Perhaps my reasoning is skewed, but I write like the devil himself. I compile the edited draft in the current Scrivener Beta to text for the final version. I load the .txt file into Word, and subsequently use Word’s Styles feature and a personalized template for everything. The final product is saved as a .doc and a .docx file for upload in those formats for Amazon, Smashwords, Kobo, and on and on.
Slam. Bam. Bob’s yer unkle. Done. So yeah, when some start complaining about how it doesn’t do this and won’t do that, I take exception.
No, I don’t compile to all the marvelous outputs that Scrivener users admire. I don’t need them.**
** Others might, for whatever reason. Good luck if you do, because it seems like an awful lot of extra work.
So while I may get a little cranky at the differences of opinion, I keep on writing, editing, uploading, and starting new work. Know why? Because the Scrivener SOFTWARE. JUST. WORKS.
Just on this point, and on this point alone, what’s going on in some of these threads is not, in my experience over the last several years, typical of these forums. To me, it’s like wandering into the postgame discussion after a round of 5th-grade dodgeball: “You cheated!” “You threw at my head on purpose!” “Your sister is ugly!” “It takes one to know one!”
Some of these threads complaining about the delay of Scrivener Windows 3 started out fairly reasonably; some of them started out aggressive and hostile. Some of the responses from long-time users who are, yes, loyal to an excellent product and even sometimes defensive of its hardworking and honest creators, have gotten obnoxious.
For those who may be discouraged about whether anything useful ever happens here, I really would encourage you to dip into a couple of threads responding to requests for help in using the software. I think you’ll find a much healthier and less culty or dodgeballish environment. We do occasionally get things right around here!
Inferring that disappointed people willing to express their disappointment are “crybabies” isn’t necessary.
That aside, you are of course correct. We would rather have disappointed folks over the calendar date than disappointment over releasing incomplete (not even just with many known bugs) software. So we’re avoiding the second much larger problem, and we’ll be avoiding the first problem as well, going forward. The community will know when the software is ready, not when we think it will be.
You’re right amber, it doesn’t match to all critics here, but sometimes i can’t take forums seriously enough anymore. to attack the programmers does not help anyone, tough.
Of course. History doesn’t exist for some people, and this is the only thread ever that anyone has read so you can dismiss their opinion on just how toxic some people are here. I’ve seen it in past visits as well, and no, I’m not bothering to cast about for samples for you. You won’t care, and you’ll simply attempt to justify them anyway.
Because I come to the forums from time to time looking for news on WinV3 and pop in infrequently except for this past month, when I finally had to register and speak my piece. Ergo, this is where I am. I do not have the time or the need to park myself in the forums here, so my observation is based on this. I recall reading one post here at some point - by a Mac user, of all people - pointing out the toxicity in these forums from a certain group of people. At least they had the stones to acknowledge it actually happens.
I threatened no such thing and have not once attacked L&L’s business. I happily use Scrivener and have since…I can’t recall exactly when, but it was perhaps six months or so after the Win version came out. I currently (and happily) use whichever beta version is on the block, although the incompatibility between them is slightly annoying. Two days ago, someone asked me what I used for my writing projects. Without hesitation, I blurted out “Scrivener!” and then spent some time helping them get into it - one reason for which was so they didn’t have to come here - because I think it is a fine tool indeed.
As a business owner myself, however, I recognize that there are people in this forum doing no favors whatsoever for L&L, who make a product I would love for them to make oodles of money on so they can continue to develop it.
Calling the forums toxic without bothering to check beyond a couple of threads that started with insults to L&L and staff and demands for ‘consequences’ to which a few people rightly came to L&L defence and even suggested a little more respectful discussion is unfair and the threats of some to badmouth L&L, their product and the forum on that basis is uncalled for. You don’t need to ‘park’ yourself in the forum to see all the great supportive responses, just a quick look would tell you, and the person I was specifically responding to. Claiming the forums are toxic without taking that minimal time perhaps shows a mindset?
If you go back and check you will see I was responding to someone else who did indeed threaten to go to a clearly inferior product (IMHO), to badmouth L&L, turn people away from the product etc.
Perhaps you felt it applied to you in one way or another to get all antsy with the reply.
Right - and thanks, yet another insult (about my “mindset”) to just cement the fact that people questioning anything really aren’t welcome. Because when someone sees the flaming people are getting, they should just merrily pop away to start going through topics in which they have no interest and which are not applicable to what they’re using. But maybe since I’m a n00b here, you’ll deem this person’s post more valuable than my opinion or that of anyone else who happens to float through here as their first experience in these forums - and who probably also will not bother heading off to find all those helpful, friendly posts that might exist elsewhere:
Since you were replying to me, quoting me, and accusing me of doing such a thing, no, you were not. You simply incorrectly chose me as a target and you seem to think your actions are a-ok. Since nobody from L&L bothers to corral the things you and others throw at people, I guess it’s a-ok with them, too.
Perhaps, since you don’t really bother to read anything, you missed the entire part of me saying how much I love Scrivener. But hey, baseless insinuations about other writers is your (and a couple of others’) thing. Do you, dude.
Go look again. my original comment that you injected yourself into was in response to someone else threatening to go elsewhere, threatening to damage L&L business etc.
You seem to get bent out of shape at the least, so I’ll leave it at that.
I think this is one of the things that irritate some of the long term users who spend a lot of time trying to help newcomers and people who have problems. Suddenly someone new comes in and visit the forum, posting only to complain about something.
So your response to those people is to call them whiners and failied writers - you, specifically, are one of the worst about that. You whine about people bitching and moaning, only to whine yourself because people don’t want to hang around in forums because they might, oh I don’t know, have actual writing to do.
Yes, you’re so very helpful. Give yourself a cookie.
If L&L were smart, they’d ditch comments like yours that you post on almost anyone offering up a complaint, pissing all over them. However, they apparently have zero intention on moderating their own forums - an area that should be a selling point if they truly want to capture Windows users - and that, my friend, is why people do not hang around here to see anything helpful.
Katherine once responded rudely to someone, then posted a followup that said there is only one rule here in the forums: be nice. Certainly doens’t appear that way.
Go ahead and have your last word about people being failed writers blaming their tools for their lack of/shitty writing, or being whiners, and your compatriots like Astaff who can’t be bothered to respond properly to someone making idiotic threats about not using Scrivener can join right in. You can then be your happy little club where people shouldn’t dare to criticize L&L and their abysmal record for shipping WinV3. I won’t be back to see it, so feel free to launch your normal, usual attacks.
Well, wasn’t that a bitter tirade? Took almost month to come up with it.
Going back to the very beginning, several of us took exception to the abuse piled on by several posters and their response to that being pointed out.
Anyhoo, do take the time to enjoy Beta 24 which is working well and shows the commitment of the development team. Hey, even take a moment to be thankful for that commitment. You said you won’t be back, but…
Okay, I don’t think thread is going anywhere fruitful at this point. I’m going to start locking all of these toxic threads if they keep rearing their heads.
To be absolutely clear, we welcome all feedback, whether it is negative or positive. This isn’t about shutting down a thread where people can express disappointment. If you want to do that, please start a new one. This is about a thread that has gone sour and is no longer about the topic at hand; it has gone from feedback to a bunch of bickering about who said what and in which tone.
As to the specific comments on moderation: there seems to be an impression that we should run a forum where the topics are “pruned” to a standard we’d like to see. We do not delete comments or alter them unless they are truly heinous, spam, by user request (and then only in very special cases) or if someone accidentally posts personally identifiable information in public. I’m aware that some forums delete stuff the moderators don’t like, but to my mind that way leads nowhere good. Leaving an argument intact may be embarrassing, but it means we aren’t shaping threads into forming some narrative we approve of. Leaving an argument intact does not mean we endorse it (or any other comment that anyone makes on their own). That seems to me quite a contrived point of view, and surely not one that I am familiar with, from any place that hosts conversations where anyone can sign up and talk.
You alone are responsible for what you say, and you should feel free to say what you want to say without fear of us deleting it, or changing it, to suit our whims.
get a little cranky at the differences of opinion, I keep on writing, editing, uploading, and starting new work. Know why? Because the Scrivener SOFTWARE. JUST. WORKS.