Window Q2

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lunk
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Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:37 am Post

Scribhneoir wrote:I've wondered why you, a Mac only user...

I’m not. I have been using Windows since Win 1.0, but I am using both Mac and Windows and run what’s best on each platform.

Scribhneoir wrote:And, once again, you miss the point that Windows users are making. Scrivener is available for Windows, but it is years behind the Mac version in features and continuing to fall even further behind. L&L has been promising parity since day one (2011, in case you don't know). But it never happens.

Okay, so if L&L stopped promising parity you’d be satisfied and would stop complaining?
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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devinganger
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Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:41 am Post

Scribhneoir wrote:Scrivener is available for Windows, but it is years behind the Mac version in features and continuing to fall even further behind.


This is either you not understanding the release history, or lying, but either way it is untrue.

I was here for the original Windows betas. At that point, the Windows version was years behind.

With beta 3, the Windows version is months behind at worst.

Go work on a novel. Check back in. See how things are going. Worry less. Love more.
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Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

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Scribhneoir
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Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:50 pm Post

devinganger wrote:With beta 3, the Windows version is months behind at worst.


Sorry, but I'm comparing Mac's fully functional, stable version 3.1.2 to Win's fully functional, stable version 1.9.9. Still want to say it's only months behind? The beta doesn't count, because it's not fully functional, it's not stable and it's not for sale. I will agree it's only months behind ... how many months is the question. In the meantime, L&L has already stated they won't artificially delay any Mac upgrades just to give Windows a chance to catch up, so, yes, Windows continues to fall behind even as those two overworked Windows developers struggle to get 3.0 finished.

I know there are many Windows users who are happy to use the buggy beta for their main work despite L&L's great big disclaimer. I'm waiting for the official release. And waiting. And waiting. And waiting. And waiting. And occasionally expressing my frustration despite having insults hurled at me when I do.

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Twolane
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Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:00 pm Post

Oh for crying out loud.

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xiamenese
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Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:13 pm Post

Scribhneoir wrote:
devinganger wrote:With beta 3, the Windows version is months behind at worst.


Sorry, but I'm comparing Mac's fully functional, stable version 3.1.2 to Win's fully functional, stable version 1.9.9. Still want to say it's only months behind? The beta doesn't count, because it's not fully functional, it's not stable and it's not for sale. I will agree it's only months behind ... how many months is the question. In the meantime, L&L has already stated they won't artificially delay any Mac upgrades just to give Windows a chance to catch up, so, yes, Windows continues to fall behind even as those two overworked Windows developers struggle to get 3.0 finished.

I know there are many Windows users who are happy to use the buggy beta for their main work despite L&L's great big disclaimer. I'm waiting for the official release. And waiting. And waiting. And waiting. And waiting. And occasionally expressing my frustration despite having insults hurled at me when I do.

So what do you want them to do? Release version 3 in its present state so you can spend your time complaining about bugs and missing features?
The Scrivenato sometimes known as Mr X.
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lunk
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Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:21 pm Post

xiamenese wrote:So what do you want them to do?

He wants them to get it done in no time at all. He simply doesn’t understand what it takes to create a functioning application.
What he misses is that this gives him an external excuse to procrastinate, which is exactly what he is doing in here.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Synth
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Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:41 pm Post

You guys are piling it on pretty thick.
I came here to check on the progress of the update, as I do from time to time. I find myself a little perplexed at the toxicity displayed here.
The software is almost two years behind the Mac OS release at this point. Now I am a patient guy, and I rarely feel ranting will give anything positive. But if someone chooses to voice their concern (in the right way, which I'd argue the original OP did not), I would say it is pretty valid.
And resorting to baseless attacks on their productivity is fallacious and unproductive in itself.

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kewms
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Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:57 pm Post

Ahem.

The position of Literature & Latte has always been -- on all platforms -- that we make no promises about future releases. You should purchase the software -- or not -- based on what it can (or can't) do now, not what you might wish to see in the future.

Yes, we are aware that the Win Scrivener 3 release is quite a bit behind the Mac Scrivener 3 release. The reasons for that have been discussed at length. The progress toward Win Scrivener 3 is readily observable via the public beta versions.

While berating the development team may make you feel better, it will not make the release happen any faster. It might, however, cause the moderators to become grumpy. Note that berating each other may also cause moderator grumpiness: much as we appreciate the support, bludgeoning critics into submission is neither necessary nor appropriate.

Providing constructive and timely feedback on the beta versions is the most useful contribution you can make to the ultimate release of Windows Scrivener 3,

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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Nightmarian
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Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:21 am Post

lunk wrote:
Nightmarian wrote:Mac is always going to be the top dog and Windows is going to be forever behind.

Absolutely!

But that’s not the point. The point is that there are currently two major operating systems - Mac Os and Windows. Some developers only make software for one of the OS:es, some make versions for both.

For a person having a computer running either of the OS:es it’s actually irrelevant what softwares that are available for users of the other OS.

Posting on a user forum requesting that things available on one OS should be available on the other OS, as if it was a human right to have access to all possible softwares, is actually very childish and immature.

Having followed the discussions in the user forum for quite some time I wonder if the true problem has nothing to do with the differences between the two versions. The problem is that the ranters have problems writing, and instead of realizing that the problem lies within themselves they want to have some external factor to blame.

When Win Scrivener 3 is officially released, what will you then blame for your inability to finish that novel you have been working on for so long?


I've finished multiple works on Scrivener 1, so it has nothing to do with Scrivener acting as a perceived crutch. There are a ton of great features I would love to simply use, and I don't understand what's so "wrong" about wanting them.

Text to speech, for instance, is a brilliant way of doing self-edit passes since hearing content spoken out loud is a great way to hear "wrongness" and catch misspellings. That's a feature of V3 (V2 for Mac, maybe?), so I don't have access to it. Instead, I have to use a third party program, the best which require extra payments or make me trudge through extra steps to actually use it like in Google Docs.

These small features are literally the multiplicative strength of Scrivener. I could write an entire novel in notepad if I wanted to. It's free and it works. But Scrivener offers so many features that make a writer's life easier and more effective.

So, again, nothing to do with final content creation but just the process and desire for features promised and even given to other users who paid exactly the same price I did. If asking for that politely is childish and immature than I'd be more likely to question your absurd perception more than anything else, as it literally makes no logical sense.

JimRac wrote:
Nightmarian wrote:If it was a case of competition, then that would be something else, as unfortunately there is no other writing platform with Scrivener's set of features and UI style, so we're kind of held hostage here unless we just want an inferior product which defeats the point. Already using Scrivener 1, which is already an inferior product.
You’re mistaken here. It *is* a case of competition. There are plenty of competing Windows products, but they are inferior even to what you are calling L&L’s “inferior” Windows product.

Think about it. If this market segment is so lucrative and a Scrivener-class product so easy to develop that all it takes is throwing developers at the project, don’t you think other companies would have done so already?


It's definitely niche, but I humbly believe that's no excuse for lack of quality or parity. If they are running a successful business off of it, then there should be room for growth. Also, there's a ton of writing programs out there, one that's even slowly copying Scrivener's UI and some of its features (Atomic Scribbler).

Many people don't consider them inferior (I personally do), even to the new Scrivener. The fact that they are competing, however, doesn't magically make them competent products and many are trying to focus on even more niche or overly broad features. That's exactly why you see dominant products in a sea of far less popular alternatives, and why their biggest rivals look exactly like them. This is true for a lot of things in both business and design.

Atomic Scribbler, for example, is only interested in catering to zero nonsense writing for short story writers and novelists while Scrivener already has support for stuff like screenplays or storyboarding and is more complex because of it (which is why people say it has a learning curve, though I kind of disagree).

Synth wrote:You guys are piling it on pretty thick.
I came here to check on the progress of the update, as I do from time to time. I find myself a little perplexed at the toxicity displayed here.
The software is almost two years behind the Mac OS release at this point. Now I am a patient guy, and I rarely feel ranting will give anything positive. But if someone chooses to voice their concern (in the right way, which I'd argue the original OP did not), I would say it is pretty valid.
And resorting to baseless attacks on their productivity is fallacious and unproductive in itself.


The toxicity is definitely offputting, but hardly surprising. It's effectual fanboyism, to use a low-level term, and it's pretty common throughout humanity. To some, such as a few of these posters, the object of their undying loyalty can do no wrong and they get upset at any and all perceived attacks.

It's sad to see. They act like we're idiotic or ungrateful, but a lot of us are neither. We simply want a discussion on what it would take to actually increase parity. Some posters, like lunk, are just being blatantly offense and devolving the agreement to something silly like procrastination or crutch-usage of Scrivener. Xiam is all sarcasm and no real discussion.

What do I want them to do? Maybe tell us what it would take for true parity. Double-sized team? More money? Is there truly no feasible way to speed up production?

And a statement was made about being only a few months behind, awkward as that is, as it's been almost a year now (maybe more?) since Mac's V3 release and improvements on it hasn't stopped. So either the Windows time somehow actually is working faster than the Mac team or the Mac team isn't doing anything, because a gap that large between full V3 releases seems like more than a case of a few months.

Nothing we can do about that, but it's there.
Last edited by Nightmarian on Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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lunk
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Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:30 am Post

Nightmarian wrote:[I don't understand what's so "wrong" about wanting them.

Text to speech, for instance, is a brilliant way of doing self-edit passes since hearing content spoken out loud is a great way to hear "wrongness" and catch misspellings. That's a feature of V3 (V2 for Mac, maybe?), so I don't have access to it.

There's nothing wrong in wanting things. Complaining when one doesn't get everything one wants is what is wrong.

Text to speech is not a Scrivener thing on Mac. It's a Mac OS thing. There are lot's of stuff in Mac OS that is ready for any developer to use, and which do not exist in Windows, like text-to-speech. So when you "want" something you are literally asking the Win Scrivener developers to develop things that Windows lacks, not that Mac Scrivener has. If Windows had all the features that Mac OS has then it would be a less difficult job to keep version parity. But that's not the case. Mac OS comes with a lot of stuff that Windows doesn't have. So maybe you should send some of your complaints to Microsoft? :D
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Nightmarian
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Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:38 am Post

lunk wrote:There's nothing wrong in wanting things. Complaining when one doesn't get everything one wants is what is wrong.


It's only your perception that it's complaining, and it's not only rude but also arrogant to offhandedly decide that on your own. We want a discussion on why there's no parity and maybe what can be done to change it because I find it difficult to believe that there's no way for it to happen. If L&L simply admitted that they don't care and have no interest in parity, then there would be no point in "complaining". Things change exactly because of constant discussion; silence changes nothing, so I find your statement serves no real purpose but to attack others.


lunk wrote:Text to speech is not a Scrivener thing on Mac. It's a Mac OS thing. There are lot's of stuff in Mac OS that is ready for any developer to use, and which do not exist in Windows, like text-to-speech.


Windows actually has Text to Speech and this feature is also currently in the Windows beta of Scrivener 3 (that you supposedly use). It is not just a Mac thing.

Aside from just being wrong, your statement is also a bit aggressive. I'd appreciate it if you toned down the snark and sarcasm. You are, ironically, only whining about us "whining" and adding absolutely nothing to the discussion. You are basically, in more words than needed, telling us to "shut up" and that is doing no one any favors.

Ki
Kinsey
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Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:29 am Post

I've been visiting/participating on these forums for about 7 years (as a Mac and latterly occasional iOS user). Lately I've been baffled as to why some users – who are otherwise extraordinarily helpful and stocked full of advice and tips – insist on policing the boards and jumping in to argue with (and occasionally insult/denigrate) some posters who are critical of the company/software. I've been guilty of it myself. But there are just no benefits to that approach. It has become so pervasive that visits to this forum have become less enjoyable because of it.

Lit&Lat have patiently explained the reasons for the delays to iOS Scriv and Windows feature parity. They have demonstrated repeatedly that they are well able to engage with their customer base in a civil and professional manner. In my opinion, it would be best to leave them to continue to do so. Self-appointed board police make this forum – which was once the most pleasant software forum on the web – less enjoyable to peruse when looking for general tips, or to be useful to stumped users. I would urge those who feel the need to reply to posts in a manner that is not helpful, or constructive to the conversation, to think again.

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lunk
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Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:40 am Post

I think that one of the reasons that some of us sometimes reply "in a manner that is not helpful" is that our initial attempts to be helpful are met with comments that are not very polite.

But you have a point, nevertheless. :oops:
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

en
ensjuafyra
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Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:47 pm Post

I have used both Scrivener and Scapple on Windows for a few years. Great stuff! Naturally, I am interested in when the release will be. I too find Q2 a bit vague.

So, is there anyone who actually knows enough to give a real prognosis on this board?

Regarding the general banter on mac vs. win I will indulge myself in leaving the following statement: Mac is actually NOT king everywhere. So upgrading the windows version shows a great care for the customer.

And yes, I can buy a mac but I prefer my win because they are better in-every-way. Sure, you can put a mac infront of me, but I will probably choose not to use it.

However, I want to keep on using Scrivener and Scapple, they are without comparison the most productive software out there.

So... pleeease make the upgrade for us windows users or at least tell us when it will be official and sturdy.

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DavidR
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Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:59 pm Post

ensjuafyra wrote:I have used both Scrivener and Scapple on Windows for a few years. Great stuff! Naturally, I am interested in when the release will be. I too find Q2 a bit vague.

So, is there anyone who actually knows enough to give a real prognosis on this board?
....

So... pleeease make the upgrade for us windows users or at least tell us when it will be official and sturdy.

Scroll up a bit to the post by Katherine (kewms), who does speak for Scrivener.
David
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