Scrivener 3 Windows Release

Ruff! Ruff! Ruff ruff ruff!

Methinks nothing short of a quart or two of whisky and a doobie will do that.

Of course you have the right to be disappointed. We all are. Not an attack dog, just a fellow Windows user.

I will point out they’re not announcing a release date here, they are sharing their current forecast if you read the linked blog post. A nuanced difference, granted, but still a difference. No matter what happens, there’s always someone ready to throw rocks.

In one way, you’re right. L&L is a Mac-first shop. The software as we know and love it wouldn’t exist without specific features that were possible because they were tied to capabilities within the Mac OS text system. That means KB often doesn’t have to write nearly as much code to implement feature X as someone on another platform would.

Scrivener for Windows 3.x is the next paid upgrade. They have been consistent. And if you have been following along with the betas (even if you aren’t using them for day-to-day work as recommended), you will see that gap is actually narrowing at a noticeable pace.

Part of the large gap is that everything is being developed against moving targets that are VERY different. And it’s not just MacOS and Windows you have to compare against; it’s MacOS (all supported versions), Windows (all supported versions), and Qt framework (whatever the currently used version is). MacOS provides several fundamental capabilities and services that are core to how Scrivener works – and these capabilities are not present in Windows. Parts of those gaps are made up by using Qt instead of writing Scrivener as a native Windows application, but that doesn’t bridge everything, and so the Windows developers not only have to port and code the existing Mac features over to a different language and framework, they also have to spend quite a bit of time creating system libraries. Without seeing the source code. Without adequate documentation. Including, in many cases, recreating the bugs across various versions of those libraries so that all of the special use-cases buried in our Scrivener documents get recognized and handled properly so that the Windows version doesn’t mangle our data or produce output that isn’t consistent with the Mac version or iOS version. Or, I’m willing to bet, in many cases having to figure out why specific chunks of code in the Mac version are there and what Mac OS bug they’re working around and analyzing it to figure if they need to include an equivalent workaround. Having to figure out the same sets of bugs in Qt and generate their own Windows-specific workarounds, and work with the Qt developers to report and get those upstream bugs fixed. Then upgrade Qt and see if it breaks anything else, and if it’s faster to go fix those new bugs or stay with the current version and keep building code.

Writing that much software takes time. Testing it takes a lot more. It’s just slow work. If you haven’t done a significant amount of coding, it’s hard to understand of describe the specific difficulties. But I’ll point out that the Windows version has two developers who do nothing but work on Scrivener. The Mac version just has KB, who also works on Scapple and Scrivener for iOS. When they say they’ve put more resources into the Windows version since 2009, it’s not hard to go back mentally, see what was being produced when, and realize that they’re not exaggerating.

Being bitter about where we’re at is certainly your choice, but what does it change? It doesn’t make you any happier. It doesn’t get the coding done any faster.

Am I correct to understand that I just downloaded the latest version of Scrivener for Windows and it is v 1.9.9.0
And we are all talking about v3.0 for win coming next!

Ahhhh pardon my diminutive grasp of English, did plane earth miss out on version 2 for windows?

Yes. Version 1.0 for Mac was released originally. Somewhere along the way, they upgraded to version 2.x. At some point in that timeline, version 1.x for Windows was released and, while behind on features, was a mix of Mac v1 and v2 features, and compatible with the Mac v2 format.

Last year, version 3.0 for Mac was released and the pending 3.0 release for Windows is intended to be as close to feature parity as possible. So they decided to skip the 2.x version numbering for Windows (although if you look in the Windows Beta forum, you’ll see that the 3.x betas are actually numbered 2.9.0.x).

I’m not bitter, exactly. Not yet. I will be when Q2 2019 comes and goes with no 3.0 release, but only another round of excuses and justifications for why Win 3.0 will take another 3 months … 6 months … a year…

For now I’m in the deeply-annoyed-growing-cynical-extremely frustrated-running-out-of-patience mode. And you’re right that it doesn’t change anything as far as L&L is concerned. Second-class Windows users venting their frustration may annoy them and bring about a rare (if not unprecedented) Windows-focused blog post, but nothing else will come of it. I understand that. I choose to vent anyway.

Earlier in this thread I predicted that Mac 3.1 would be released before Win 3.0. I was right. My new prediction is that Mac 3.2 will be released in Q2 2019, again before Win 3.0.

Can we get an update from the dev team? Are you guys on target for the Q2 release date?

If not, please give better estimates or give a revised one now before June comes and goes and we have no v3.x but do have a new estimated released date.

Thanks!

(Before the apologist above chimes in, yes, I know about “coding is hard”, I used to do it. That’s not the issue here. To a extent, no-one cares how hard the work is, What we do care about is that if we are given a release date it is met. If there are unknowns in a project you factor that into the estimate given and if you’ve been working on the project before, your accuracy in that estimate should be higher.)

Well eggybread, I dunno, but why not pick up one of the many, many other software programs that claim to do what Scrivener for Windows does? I believe there are a number of free programs. There’s even one where you pay a monthly subscription for an online version. I’m certain that bit of program delight will stay current for your everyday needs, and will no doubt be updated regularly to meet those same needs.

I’m with eggybread. I continue to see updates to the Mac version of Scrivener but barely a whisper of news about the stable Windows version 3.0 release. I still remember, way back when, that the Windows version was “coming in 2018”. If actions speak louder than words - and they do - it’s quite clear that L&L doesn’t care as much about the Windows version as they do the Mac version.

I’m not mad or angry at L&L. I’m just bummed I don’t have the functionality and features that are being sold with the shiny and new Mac versions.

That would be because 1) it’s not released yet and 2) L&L has learned the hard way that no matter what they say or do regarding releases, people are going to yell at them, so why provide estimates on release times? It only gets them beat up by people who refuse to internalize the concept of “estimate.”

Do you want them to release incomplete software?

All you have to do is take a look at the Beta test forum and see there’s been an incredible amount of work done on the Windows version, and that the gap between Mac and Windows is smaller now than it has ever been. A large amount of that work is invisible precisely because it’s the beneath-the-hood code that doesn’t get directly exposed but nevertheless is required so that the Windows version has anything close to the same functionality as the Mac version.

Would I ever recommend that people use the beta version for their live work? Not unless they are experienced beta testers, are VERY comfortable with the Scrivener format internals on Windows, and know how to back up their work to minimize the risk of lost/corrupted work due to unforeseen bugs. However, you can still use 1.9.x and download the latest beta to take a look at it and see the progress that is being made.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

What I’d like is to get a sense that the Windows version is getting the same level of attention that the Mac version has, instead of seeming like a second-class citizen (which has always seemed to be the case).

I believe you that they’re working hard to bring the Windows version up to the same level of capability as the Mac version. And I believe their intentions are good - as I said, I’m not mad or angry at L&L, so there’s no need to defend them. I’m just expressing my disappointment that it is taking so long. And I can understand and accept the reasons that it’s taking so long and still be disappointed.

I recently invested in Scrivener (for Windows) after reading many reviews of several different writing systems. The final contest was down to two, with Scrivener being marginally better in some though not in all things.

The thing that decided it for me was that although Scrivener for Windows lagged behind the Mac version, there were many hints that the much improved Windows version (V3) was getting fairly close to release and that while there would be some differences due to the differences between the two operating systems, virtually all the Mac features would be available in Windows.

What I didn’t do was to find this thread and see that ‘fairly close’ and ‘near future’ were such flexible descriptions. Because of this I feel somewhat cheated. It is possible that I would still have gone with Scrivener, but I would have been prepared for a long wait in the hope that V3 would appear in the fullness of time. Or it is just as possible that I would have continued with my writing software I was using at that time and waited to see what happened. And if the long vigil became unacceptably long, chosen the other software in my two horse race.

Some thoughts and associated questions that might not be answered for commercial confidentiality reasons.

What is the proportion of Scrivener sales between Windows and Mac?
Has any research been done to see if the substantial difference between the versions is putting people off Scrivener for Windows? This might be relevant to the urgency of playing catch up.
Has any research been done on the relative proportion of writers ‘out there’ using Mac and Windows? This might be relevant to the potential for sales to the as yet uncommitted Windows writers.

:confused:

Literature & Latte is privately held and does not release sales data.

Katherine

For myself, I’m hoping we get an update on an estimated ETA–I’ve used Scrivener for several years, but I have some large projects that would benefit from the features of v3, so I’m holding off on them, but if we’re talking more than half a year before release, I’d probably just go ahead on them.

Hi Katherine

I’m not surprised and I fully understand about the need for confidentiality of sales data and target audience research. All I am trying to do is offer some thoughts - though as a successful company I’m sure you’re already on top of it.

What I’m really hoping is that that you can work out some way of giving your Windows customer base some realistic hints as to whether we should continue to hang on in there for a proper V3 within the next few months (we’re in the second quarter after all) or simply bite the bullet and accept that the Windows version of Scrivener will always be the poor relation and several steps behind the Mac version.

It never ceases to amaze me to read about the pearl clutching regarding a new version of Scrivener. I’ve been using the Windows product in its various incarnations since 2011. Many have been using it far longer. I’ve written (oh, I dunno, allow me a moment to call up my spreadsheet) more than a hundred short stories and novels in that time.

Reading the comments in this and other threads, I was apparently using an antique. Who would have known had you all not been so informative?

Now, with Beta 17 as my Scrivener of choice, I am using an incomplete and unusable product. Oh the horror.

But that’s all right. I’ll keep on keeping on writing and publishing and selling. As for the rest of you, well…

Write on, brothers and sisters.

DaveK wrote:

First a disclaimer. I know nothing. Just a user, and only for a couple of years. But, I think you should assume that the Windows version will be behind the Mac Version. I would not call it a poor cousin, and of course whether it is “several steps behind” depends on the definition of a step. But, for years it has been behind and it is currently aiming for the specs of Mac 3.0 while the mac version is at 3.2 I think. It was originally designed for the Mac, and many things it does are hard to do on Windows and are taking much longer than they thought.

However, the amount of work that gets done every 6 weeks or so when a new beta 3 is released, is extensive. They are currently on beta 17. The resources that are going into the programming, and beta support are extensive and does not fit a “poor cousin” label. Two years ago when I selected Scrivener, it was because the Windows version beat the competition (as far as I could determine).

About 9 months ago I moved to the Beta 3 for a project and have since moved everything over. It is working for me. If L&L were willing to have a “poor cousin” Windows version, they could have reduced the specs below Mac 3.0 and released a better program than 1.9x. They are really trying to make them comparable and seem unwilling to accept a significantly lesser Windows product.

So, I think you can assume that Windows Scrivener is likely to continue to be the best product of its kind for Windows. That L&L will continue to pour resources, programming, documentation, and support into the Windows version, but that it is likely to remain a bit behind the Mac version.

There are different programming teams on the two versions, and we can’ t expect the Mac programmers to sit around and do nothing so the Windows clients don’t feel left behind. The current strategy is to make the Windows version like the Mac Version, rather than let it veer off into its own world. I think that is likely to keep the Mac version a bit ahead.

The current Mac version is 3.1.2. The only major new feature since the 3.0 release has been Dark Mode, which was (on the Mac) mostly a matter of creating a second set of interface elements. Mac OS provides the tools for switching back and forth. Most of the other changes have been bug fixes – I hope those are okay with Windows folks?

Katherine

And not only that, but Dark Mode was folded into the beta and will be part of the 3.0 release—that is without a comprehensive operating system-wide infrastructure for doing so. There will be some necessary post-3.0 updates to catch up with a few of the additions made to Scrivener since the 3.0 release for macOS, but a lot of them have been likewise folded in or are planned to be.

If you really want to know what has been released for the Mac since 3.0 then download its user manual and flip to Appendix E, in the “What’s New” section. All of the notable changes are documented there—and those who know anything about the beta will recognise a number of them.

By my quick tally (which is meant more to convey a rough estimate, I didn’t spend an hour on this), here are the results:

  • Notable macOS refinements and additions since 3.0: 27
  • Of those improvements that are completely irrelevant to Windows, or represent removals/lateral changes (like shortcuts being shuffled around): 7
  • Those improvements that have already been added to the Windows v3 beta: 14

So out of the roughly 20 improvements that we considered notable enough to make mention of in the appendix of the user manual, 14 of those have already been implemented in the beta, or are planned to be included in 3.0 for Windows, meaning only six notable changes will be added after 3.0 is released—assuming they won’t anyway, or that I missed a memo about one of them being on the list.

To give you a taste of what some of these six are, among them are:

  • A weird “Kindle optimised” ePub variant that was designed to work with IngramSpark—which turns out to not work that well (they reject it).
  • Inserting media timestamps with a shortcut while transcribing. Pretty cool—for 1% of our user base.
  • Find duplicates: a project search mode that looks for exact duplicate items in the binder—also pretty niche, but handy if you need it.

To be fair there are some neater things in that list as well that we’ll be excited to bring to Windows:

  • Focus mode, to zero in on the context you’re writing and fade the rest out.
  • Improved screenplay layout for better on-the-fly proofing, like dual dialogue and MORE/CONT’D markers.

And also to be fair, there a still a lot of things that need to be done to reach the full 3.0 specification as well. I don’t mean to completely minimise the differences, and this simple list here is by no means intended to be a complete to-do list. But in a Thread of Wallowing like this, it is sometimes useful to inject a few facts into what is otherwise a discussion of feelings, senses, and vague misunderstandings of where the beta is, and just how far the Mac version has really progressed since 3.0. Facts like how the Windows development team has more staff, or how there have been 17 releases in the same time period there have been five for Mac, or how the relative feature addition within that same time span is hardly comparable—in that the real Windows “score” isn’t a mere 14, but probably more along the lines of well over a hundred notable additions since beta 1, some of which represent extremely complicated and difficult to implement features. Facts like how it took five years for the Mac version to go through its full cycle of development, to get to where it was at 3.0.

I see people here posting with less than a dozen total posts, most of them spent in this thread. Maybe get out of this thread and into the beta forum—download it, see where the project actually is, and then form an opinion based on that, rather than a bunch of hearsay and Game of Telephones (and we all know how badly that can end).

In short, as someone else said: write on. Truly, jokes aside, I am sorry to hear some of you are disappointed, for whatever your reasons may be. We’ll continue working as hard as we have been bridging what was once an enormous gap, and is now narrowing down quite satisfactorily.

Speaking of which, I’m going to get back to work actually helping to get this stuff done.