Scrivener 3 Windows Release

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 6207
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:13 pm Post

Windows Scrivener 3 public beta is here:
https://www.literatureandlatte.com/foru ... 57&t=40621

Release notes haven't been published yet -- it's a beta! -- but the goal is to achieve feature parity with Mac Scrivener 3, which is discussed in detail here:
https://literatureandlatte.com/introducing-scrivener-3

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Ma
Major Major
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:52 pm
Platform: Windows
Location: Oakville, ON Canada

Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:52 pm Post

Mastercore wrote:
Other there are a raft of other issue such as the keyboard shortcuts - some of which seem to simply refuse to work (I have not gone to the lengths of going and playing with keyboard shortcut settings)..


I'm guessing you're not executing the shortcuts correctly. The nomenclature can be a little confusing.

Ji
JimRac
Posts: 1653
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:06 pm
Platform: Win + iOS

Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:17 pm Post

Mastercore wrote:What I am hoping for I guess is peek at the release notes for windows v3. So I can see for myself what the improvements are.

Download the beta and try it for yourself. URL in my post above. Post any issues you find in the beta forum.
I’m just a customer.

Sc
Scribhneoir
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:43 am
Platform: Windows

Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:11 pm Post

DavidR wrote:For those who have not seen this news yet, Scrivener 3 is now expected in the 2nd quarter of 2019: https://literatureandlatte.com/blog/scrivener-3-on-windows-for-the-soul.


Really. They're giving a release time frame, vague though it is, after vociferously claiming time and again that they never commit themselves to release dates? Right.

So we can expect another six months of waiting, assuming that their fiscal year begins on January 1, and also expecting that they'll release it on the last day of Q2, not the first, if they release it at all.

One note that may be of particular interest on this thread is the statement "Since 2009 we’ve thrown more resources and time at development on Windows than we have macOS."


Hahahahahahahahahaha. Sorry for scoffing, but I don't believe that for a minute. Sounds like spin to quiet the frustrated Windows users.

The creator of Scrivener still codes and pushes the application forward on macOS, so there is always going to be a slight delay getting equivalent features to our Windows users ...


A slight delay? Windows users have been told parity with Mac will come with the "next paid upgrade" for more than five years. So why did Mac get Scriv 3 more than a year before Windows? Because L&L is a Mac-based company offering a Windows version only grudgingly. If more resources and time had really been thrown at Windows than Mac, then we should have seen Scriv 3 before, or at least at the same time, as Mac users.

Still not holding my breath for 2019. Still not interested in using the eternal beta.

Now I'm going to console myself with a piece of fudge and a couple of Christmas cookies before the attack dogs come out to chastise me for not being properly grateful that there's a Win Scriv at all and to shut up about being disappointed by yet another months-long delay. After all,
They will even be including Dark Mode in their 3.0 release, which wasn’t a feature in Scrivener on macOS until version 3.1.
That should keep me happy, right?

Ji
JimRac
Posts: 1653
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:06 pm
Platform: Win + iOS

Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:40 pm Post

Scribhneoir wrote:
DavidR wrote:For those who have not seen this news yet, Scrivener 3 is now expected in the 2nd quarter of 2019: https://literatureandlatte.com/blog/scrivener-3-on-windows-for-the-soul.


Really. They're giving a release time frame, vague though it is, after vociferously claiming time and again that they never commit themselves to release dates? Right.

So we can expect another six months of waiting, assuming that their fiscal year begins on January 1, and also expecting that they'll release it on the last day of Q2, not the first, if they release it at all.

One note that may be of particular interest on this thread is the statement "Since 2009 we’ve thrown more resources and time at development on Windows than we have macOS."


Hahahahahahahahahaha. Sorry for scoffing, but I don't believe that for a minute. Sounds like spin to quiet the frustrated Windows users.

The creator of Scrivener still codes and pushes the application forward on macOS, so there is always going to be a slight delay getting equivalent features to our Windows users ...


A slight delay? Windows users have been told parity with Mac will come with the "next paid upgrade" for more than five years. So why did Mac get Scriv 3 more than a year before Windows? Because L&L is a Mac-based company offering a Windows version only grudgingly. If more resources and time had really been thrown at Windows than Mac, then we should have seen Scriv 3 before, or at least at the same time, as Mac users.

Still not holding my breath for 2019. Still not interested in using the eternal beta.

Now I'm going to console myself with a piece of fudge and a couple of Christmas cookies before the attack dogs come out to chastise me for not being properly grateful that there's a Win Scriv at all and to shut up about being disappointed by yet another months-long delay. After all,
They will even be including Dark Mode in their 3.0 release, which wasn’t a feature in Scrivener on macOS until version 3.1.
That should keep me happy, right?

Ruff! Ruff! Ruff ruff ruff!
I’m just a customer.

Tw
Twolane
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:39 pm
Platform: Windows

Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:50 pm Post

That should keep me happy, right?


Methinks nothing short of a quart or two of whisky and a doobie will do that.

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
Contact:

Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:09 pm Post

Of course you have the right to be disappointed. We all are. Not an attack dog, just a fellow Windows user.

Scribhneoir wrote:Really. They're giving a release time frame, vague though it is, after vociferously claiming time and again that they never commit themselves to release dates? Right.

So we can expect another six months of waiting, assuming that their fiscal year begins on January 1, and also expecting that they'll release it on the last day of Q2, not the first, if they release it at all.


I will point out they're not announcing a release date here, they are sharing their current forecast if you read the linked blog post. A nuanced difference, granted, but still a difference. No matter what happens, there's always someone ready to throw rocks.

A slight delay? Windows users have been told parity with Mac will come with the "next paid upgrade" for more than five years. So why did Mac get Scriv 3 more than a year before Windows? Because L&L is a Mac-based company offering a Windows version only grudgingly. If more resources and time had really been thrown at Windows than Mac, then we should have seen Scriv 3 before, or at least at the same time, as Mac users.


In one way, you're right. L&L is a Mac-first shop. The software as we know and love it wouldn't exist without specific features that were possible because they were tied to capabilities within the Mac OS text system. That means KB often doesn't have to write nearly as much code to implement feature X as someone on another platform would.

Scrivener for Windows 3.x *is* the next paid upgrade. They have been consistent. And if you have been following along with the betas (even if you aren't using them for day-to-day work as recommended), you will see that gap is actually narrowing at a noticeable pace.

Part of the large gap is that everything is being developed against moving targets that are VERY different. And it's not just MacOS and Windows you have to compare against; it's MacOS (all supported versions), Windows (all supported versions), and Qt framework (whatever the currently used version is). MacOS provides several fundamental capabilities and services that are core to how Scrivener works -- and these capabilities are not present in Windows. Parts of those gaps are made up by using Qt instead of writing Scrivener as a native Windows application, but that doesn't bridge everything, and so the Windows developers not only have to port and code the existing Mac features over to a different language and framework, they also have to spend quite a bit of time creating system libraries. Without seeing the source code. Without adequate documentation. Including, in many cases, recreating the bugs across various versions of those libraries so that all of the special use-cases buried in our Scrivener documents get recognized and handled properly so that the Windows version doesn't mangle our data or produce output that isn't consistent with the Mac version or iOS version. Or, I'm willing to bet, in many cases having to figure out why specific chunks of code in the Mac version are there and what Mac OS bug they're working *around* and analyzing it to figure if they need to include an equivalent workaround. Having to figure out the same sets of bugs in Qt and generate their own Windows-specific workarounds, and work with the Qt developers to report and get those upstream bugs fixed. Then upgrade Qt and see if it breaks anything else, and if it's faster to go fix those new bugs or stay with the current version and keep building code.

Writing that much software takes time. Testing it takes a lot more. It's just slow work. If you haven't done a significant amount of coding, it's hard to understand of describe the specific difficulties. But I'll point out that the Windows version has *two* developers who do nothing but work on Scrivener. The Mac version just has KB, who also works on Scapple and Scrivener for iOS. When they say they've put more resources into the Windows version since 2009, it's not hard to go back mentally, see what was being produced when, and realize that they're not exaggerating.

Being bitter about where we're at is certainly your choice, but what does it change? It doesn't make you any happier. It doesn't get the coding done any faster.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

Ma
Mastercore
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:58 pm
Platform: Windows

Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:04 pm Post

Am I correct to understand that I just downloaded the latest version of Scrivener for Windows and it is v 1.9.9.0
And we are all talking about v3.0 for win coming next!

Ahhhh pardon my diminutive grasp of English, did plane earth miss out on version 2 for windows?

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
Contact:

Tue Dec 25, 2018 3:28 pm Post

Mastercore wrote:Am I correct to understand that I just downloaded the latest version of Scrivener for Windows and it is v 1.9.9.0
And we are all talking about v3.0 for win coming next!

Ahhhh pardon my diminutive grasp of English, did plane earth miss out on version 2 for windows?


Yes. Version 1.0 for Mac was released originally. Somewhere along the way, they upgraded to version 2.x. At some point in that timeline, version 1.x for Windows was released and, while behind on features, was a mix of Mac v1 and v2 features, and compatible with the Mac v2 format.

Last year, version 3.0 for Mac was released and the pending 3.0 release for Windows is intended to be as close to feature parity as possible. So they decided to skip the 2.x version numbering for Windows (although if you look in the Windows Beta forum, you'll see that the 3.x betas are actually numbered 2.9.0.x).
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

Sc
Scribhneoir
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:43 am
Platform: Windows

Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:14 pm Post

Being bitter about where we're at is certainly your choice, but what does it change? It doesn't make you any happier. It doesn't get the coding done any faster.


I'm not bitter, exactly. Not yet. I will be when Q2 2019 comes and goes with no 3.0 release, but only another round of excuses and justifications for why Win 3.0 will take another 3 months ... 6 months ... a year...

For now I'm in the deeply-annoyed-growing-cynical-extremely frustrated-running-out-of-patience mode. And you're right that it doesn't change anything as far as L&L is concerned. Second-class Windows users venting their frustration may annoy them and bring about a rare (if not unprecedented) Windows-focused blog post, but nothing else will come of it. I understand that. I choose to vent anyway.

Earlier in this thread I predicted that Mac 3.1 would be released before Win 3.0. I was right. My new prediction is that Mac 3.2 will be released in Q2 2019, again before Win 3.0.

eg
eggybread
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:02 am
Platform: Windows

Tue May 21, 2019 10:34 am Post

Can we get an update from the dev team? Are you guys on target for the Q2 release date?

If not, please give better estimates or give a revised one now before June comes and goes and we have no v3.x but do have a new estimated released date.

Thanks!

(Before the apologist above chimes in, yes, I know about "coding is hard", I used to do it. That's not the issue here. To a extent, no-one cares how hard the work is, What we do care about is that if we are given a release date it is met. If there are unknowns in a project you factor that into the estimate given and if you've been working on the project before, your accuracy in that estimate should be higher.)

Tw
Twolane
Posts: 202
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:39 pm
Platform: Windows

Tue May 21, 2019 7:54 pm Post

Well eggybread, I dunno, but why not pick up one of the many, many other software programs that claim to do what Scrivener for Windows does? I believe there are a number of free programs. There's even one where you pay a monthly subscription for an online version. I'm certain that bit of program delight will stay current for your everyday needs, and will no doubt be updated regularly to meet those same needs.

wb
wburkett
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu May 18, 2017 5:35 pm
Platform: Windows

Fri May 24, 2019 11:20 pm Post

I'm with eggybread. I continue to see updates to the Mac version of Scrivener but barely a whisper of news about the stable Windows version 3.0 release. I still remember, way back when, that the Windows version was "coming in 2018". If actions speak louder than words - and they do - it's quite clear that L&L doesn't care as much about the Windows version as they do the Mac version.

I'm not mad or angry at L&L. I'm just bummed I don't have the functionality and features that are being sold with the shiny and new Mac versions.

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 2035
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
Contact:

Fri May 24, 2019 11:54 pm Post

wburkett wrote:I'm with eggybread. I continue to see updates to the Mac version of Scrivener but barely a whisper of news about the stable Windows version 3.0 release.


That would be because 1) it's not released yet and 2) L&L has learned the hard way that no matter what they say or do regarding releases, people are going to yell at them, so why provide estimates on release times? It only gets them beat up by people who refuse to internalize the concept of "estimate."

wburkett wrote:I still remember, way back when, that the Windows version was "coming in 2018". If actions speak louder than words - and they do - it's quite clear that L&L doesn't care as much about the Windows version as they do the Mac version.


Do you want them to release incomplete software?

All you have to do is take a look at the Beta test forum and see there's been an incredible amount of work done on the Windows version, and that the gap between Mac and Windows is smaller now than it has ever been. A large amount of that work is invisible precisely because it's the beneath-the-hood code that doesn't get directly exposed but nevertheless is required so that the Windows version has anything close to the same functionality as the Mac version.

Would I ever recommend that people use the beta version for their live work? Not unless they are experienced beta testers, are VERY comfortable with the Scrivener format internals on Windows, and know how to back up their work to minimize the risk of lost/corrupted work due to unforeseen bugs. However, you can still use 1.9.x and download the latest beta to take a look at it and *see* the progress that is being made.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

eg
eggybread
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:02 am
Platform: Windows

Sat May 25, 2019 9:45 am Post

Thanks for the responses, guys.