About Scrivener 3

Gr
Graybyrd
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Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:43 pm Post

KB wrote:Very few software companies continue to sell an older version of their software when a new version is out.


Apparently my post was too long, too complex, and too confusing. It has been completely misinterpreted and somewhat demonized. Let me clarify.

Apple still sells OSX 10.6 Snow Leopard. Last year I purchased and installed that on a used Mac Mini. I also run the latest version of DEVONThink Pro that will run on 10.6, licensed under their "legacy" provision. It was available for download on their site, and available for license. I upgrade-licensed several other "legacy" apps in the same manner, all for OSX 10.6.

Why such a Luddite, "stagnant", non-progressive approach?

Because Apple, in my opinion has ENFORCED an upgrade path that increasingly produces fewer user productivity benefits, focused instead on increased corporate return. I've elected to stay with an investment that yields maximum productivity and return for my purposes. I don't criticize those who upgrade every release; why do so many of you feel entitled to denigrate those of us who settle for a proven setup? (Our household runs the LATEST version of Linux on two laptops and two desktop machines. I upgrade those installations weekly with the latest released patches. Those are our PRIMARY systems. In my opinion, both Windows and Apple OS are no longer fit for purpose as productive household systems. Their major focus has shifted to mobile, hand-held systems.)

I agree that Keith and Lit&Lat must stay on Apple's dictated path. And at least half the user base is staying up with Apple's latest hardware and OS releases.

But... and here is my point (my ONLY point) and my criticism.

If L&L refuses to do as DEVONthink and others have done, and will not sell a license for Scriv2 so a 32-bit Apple OS user can install and use Scrivener on a legacy system, then that constitutes shutting the door on that class of user. That's your business choice. But to claim that it is a "burden" to sell a new Scriv2 license is a bit disingenuous. If Scriv2 runs perfectly well on a 32-bit system today, why won't it run just as well, without additional updating or support, tomorrow, next year, or the year after? Illogical, Scotty!

So if anyone, for whatever reason, purchases a legacy Mac system and seeks to install Scrivener... they're excluded. That's my point. Other software houses will license legacy versions; L&L has chosen not to.

(Postscript: We purchased licenses for both Mac and Windows versions of Scrivener. We run the Windows version under continuously updated versions of WINE for Linux. We do this for convenience; happily, Scrivener does run well for us under WINE... so far. Knock on wood. Luddite? Stagnant? I don't think so.)
On my honor, I will do my best not to do anything unlawful, infringing, disruptive, harmful, threatening, abusive, tortious, defamatory, libelous, lewd, profane, obscene, hateful or otherwise objectionable. Pinky Promise. :mrgreen:

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kewms
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:40 am Post

According to the DevonTechnologies page, DevonThink Pro version 2.7.6 will run with OS X 10.6, so a 2.x DTP license would be appropriate. This is analogous to the current situation with Scrivener, where a newly purchased Scrivener 2 license will work with Scrivener 2.5, providing support all the way back to OS X 10.4. Here, the situation between the two programs is comparable.

What I do not, see, however, is a place on DevonThink Pro's page where one can purchase a new license for DTP version 1.x. Nor do I see any information about their plans, if any, for DTP 3.

So I'm not sure how this example supports your claim that DevonTechnologies is providing "better" support for legacy systems.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

JJ
JJSlote
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:55 am Post

DTP's legacy downloads are here:

http://www.devontechnologies.com/download/legacy.html

Versions even older available -- "only on request."

Considering Scriv's market of impecunious writers and students, Devon's policy is worth some consideration for L&L.

Rgds - Jerome

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kewms
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:25 am Post

Please explain how Scrivener's legacy support is different?

Scrivener 2.8.1 will work with all versions of OS X back to 10.9.
Scrivener 2.5 will work from OS X 10.4 through 10.8.
Scrivener 1.54 will work from OS X 10.4 through 10.6.

Scrivener did not exist prior to OS X 10.4.

http://www.literatureandlatte.com/download_mac.php

Katherine
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JJ
JJSlote
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:05 am Post

kewms wrote:Please explain how Scrivener's legacy support is different?
"If you are an existing customer..." (Scriv) vs
"legacy versions of our apps to use on older computers." (Devon)

Pretty confident these Scriv legacy downloads will stay around after 3.0 to support steam-powered Mac users who experience a glitch. The concern for some users on this thread is that they won't be available for license.

Rgds - Jerome

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kewms
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:19 am Post

The license currently for sale on DevonThink's site says that it supports OS X 10.9 or greater.

Have you personally tested that license with 1.x versions of DTP or can you point me to a page that confirms it will work?

I have nothing against DevonTechnologies. I use several of their products. But I'm not seeing any real difference between their legacy support and ours.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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devinganger
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:57 am Post

Graybyrd wrote:If L&L refuses to do as DEVONthink and others have done, and will not sell a license for Scriv2 so a 32-bit Apple OS user can install and use Scrivener on a legacy system, then that constitutes shutting the door on that class of user. That's your business choice. But to claim that it is a "burden" to sell a new Scriv2 license is a bit disingenuous. If Scriv2 runs perfectly well on a 32-bit system today, why won't it run just as well, without additional updating or support, tomorrow, next year, or the year after?


L&L is not DEVONthink (although others in the thread previously have dealt nicely with that comparison).

L&L is selling licenses for Scriv2 and will until Scriv3 is released. All of those users are a potential point of support. Anyone who wants to buy *a new* Scrivener license once v3 is released will have to buy it for v3, but EVERYONE who has an existing v2 license still gets to use their license. They're not blocking anyone from installing Scriv2 on a 32-bit legacy system *provided they already have the license*.

Why WOULD they want new users to buy a v2 license? That's a separate code base. That's a separate version of the program. Based on the archived interactions in the forum, that's another X YEARS of people asking how to do "X" and getting told "you can't do that in v2," of finding themselves second-class citizens because the Scrivener world has moved on. They want to reduce that population as quickly as possible, not let it increase! (You brought up Linux and WINE -- look at how many people STILL demand support on a version that was CLEARLY marked as unsupported, put out as one last bit of goodwill to the Linux community. Now multiply that.)

Nobody is saying you don't have the right to keep your legacy installs. But that's just it -- they're legacy. You have the right to not keep up with the latest and greatest for whatever reason you find compelling and nobody has the right to tell you differently (although we do the have the right to explain why we don't agree with your reason). However, you don't have the right to demand that L&L support your particular scenario, either, if they have run the numbers and decided that it doesn't make financial sense to do so.

You and I have no clue of what the finances are to support Scrivener. (Well, I can make some semi-educated guesses, but that's all they would be.) I can say from my own experience that supporting multiple, highly different versions of the same program is a lot of work, and the companies that willingly do that sort of thing *USUALLY CHARGE EXTRA* for support.

If this was a $1,000 program, or you paid $X a year for support, you might have a point. But US$45 one-time? Mate, that doesn't give anyone the right to perpetual sales and support for 2.x -- especially for people who choose to use a version that depends on an old, deliberately rotting OS platform.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

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lunk
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:55 am Post

Graybyrd wrote:Apparently my post was too long, too complex, and too confusing. It has been completely misinterpreted and somewhat demonized. Let me clarify.


A question, for clarification:
If L&L decide to continue to sell v2 licenses, can they do so without having to maintain some sort of support function for it? Doesn't selling a product require that you also maintain some sort of support for it?

I would expect most future support questions regarding v2 to be answered "that has been solved in the new version 3". Do you think a future new v2 buyer with at legacy system would accept such an answer?
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

Lu
LuckyJack
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:30 pm Post

Surprising to see negativity. Scrivener 3 sounds like it addresses the concerns I have with version 2 (style sheets!!), so I'm going to be an early adopter.

If I knew the moment L&L's website would start taking payments for version 3, I'd set my alarm clock for any hour to get it on the instant of release (with style sheets!!!!).

Hmmm... If I set an alarm for every hour I could get V3 as much as a half-day quicker. Twenty-three more wind-up Big Ben alarm clocks, that's the answer.

Tick-tick-tick-tick.....

Sc
ScriverTid
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:40 pm Post

Kinsey wrote:The complaints on this thread baffle me. When have L&L ever abandoned their user base, or given the impression they ever will? Are people really getting bent out of shape because this company is planning for 10 years down the road? Incredible. Having written two books in Scrivener and many other smaller items, I hope that I am still using it in 10 years

The business plan seems to me to be perfectly sound. I still use MS Office for Mac 2011. It's still supported. But MS won't sell it to me on their website. Fair enough

Sound points. I find Scrivener 2 does a whole lot of stuff that no other software does, and does it well. My only problem is when users say things like "Oh, that's a bug caused by Apple, which will be sorted out in Scrivener 3" or "Can't wait until S3 is released!!" If my entire software life was based upon Scrivener, I'd upgrade to Sierra, but I NEED Dragon Dictate and can't afford the newer version, and I use iTunes 10 a LOT. Admittedly I can use Photoshop CS6 and could probably upgrade to CC if I wanted to, but I can still use iPhoto and Elements 6, and don't use Office anymore.

I also don't agree with Keith that "users seem to like the annual release of Mac OS". It's one of the commonest complaints online among both users and experts. They DO seem to like the annual release of iPhones and iOS and I understand that. As for MacOS, now it's moved exclusively to 64-bit (the original premise of Snow Leopard), all it needs is a touch interface which it could achieve via a Magic Trackpad, or the new supersize Macbook trackpad (... perhaps that's what it has in mind ... ?) and it would be pretty much perfect in terms of modern users interfacing with social media.

Microsoft brings many fewer upgrades to Windows (there was no Windows 9, so 10 is the 9th :lol: ) while there have been 21 for Mac and High Sierra will be 22.

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devinganger
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:10 pm Post

ScriverTid wrote:Microsoft brings many fewer upgrades to Windows (there was no Windows 9, so 10 is the 9th :lol: ) while there have been 21 for Mac and High Sierra will be 22.


To be fair, you'd also need to count Service Packs and feature upgrades (like the Windows 10 Creator's Update), which would bring it a lot closer to parity with MacOS.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

jc
jcarman
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:19 pm Post

I only buy software from companies that have a philosophy of "helping the user use the software," not "helping the user work under the software."

PCalc, HoudahSpot, and Scrivener are such products and I evangelize them all.

I've never felt L&L abandoned me. They've always stepped up.

I'm baffled, too, anyone would think otherwise.

Oh, and time marches on. You gotta go with the flow of software or use Word.

Sc
ScriverTid
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:32 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
ScriverTid wrote:Microsoft brings many fewer upgrades to Windows (there was no Windows 9, so 10 is the 9th :lol: ) while there have been 21 for Mac and High Sierra will be 22.


To be fair, you'd also need to count Service Packs and feature upgrades (like the Windows 10 Creator's Update), which would bring it a lot closer to parity with MacOS.

When you consider System 7.1, 7.5 and 7.6 were quite big upgrades, as were OS 8.1, 8.5 and 8.6, 9.1 and 9.2, and OS X 10.2.8, 10.10.3 and maybe one or two other "point" upgrades, that puts Mac still well ahead.

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lunk
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Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:00 pm Post

ScriverTid wrote:Microsoft brings many fewer upgrades to Windows (there was no Windows 9, so 10 is the 9th :lol: ) while there have been 21 for Mac and High Sierra will be 22.


No. Windows 10, and OS 10, sounds like they are on parity. :)
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

ra
randybisig
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Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:32 am Post

ScriverTid wrote:
randybisig wrote:Failing to stay out of the flame war that started, I gotta say that holding onto the past will only keep you from improving. This was felt by those who held onto their floppy disk PCs instead of moving on to CD-Rs (recordable CDs) or moving on from a removable disc and onto USB Drives.

Granted, not everyone has the funds to buy the most recent shiny new thing.
Let's just hope what you have now does all that you want to do.

Ok, I'm provoked by this! The changes in hardware you mention encompass a 35-year timespan, assuming you regard USB as the current standard!

As for the "most recent shiny new thing", this is also not relevant to the discussion. I run a 2011 Core i5 iMac with extra RAM that is quite capable of running Sierra, High Sierra, Pixar, Disney, or whatever the next MacOS (aka OS X) is going to be called. My reasons for staying with Mavericks are entirely software-based, not hardware...


My apologies for provoking you. It was an assumption on my part that hardware was the reason for not upgrading past Mavericks. Which leads me to wonder what software is keeping you at Mac OS 10.9, and why they haven't updated their software as well?