In my subjective opinion, Vonnegut is not awfully good

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Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:01 pm Post

druid wrote:Try to be someone upon whom nothing is ever wasted.

Lovely, Druid. I had forgotten this gem. Thanks for the reminder!

Tim
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between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.

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Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:53 pm Post

Yeah, but Henry James never had to read James Joyce. If he had, he would never had thought to make this statement.
God, I hate thinking up signatures!

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Wock
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Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:53 am Post

Flamebait is a message posted to a public Internet discussion group, such as a forum, newsgroup or mailing list, with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame") or argument over a topic the troll often has no real interest in.

Motives
The most popular motive is the desire for attention and for entertainment derived at the expense of others. Posted flamebait can provide the poster with a controlled trigger-and-response setting in which to anonymously engage in conflicts and indulge in aggressive behavior without facing the consequences that such behavior might bring in a face-to-face encounter. In other instances, flamebait may be used to reduce a forum's use by angering the forum users.

Resolving a flamebait
It is often hard to determine who is really responsible for the degradation of a reasonable discussion into a flamewar. Someone who posts a contrary opinion in a strongly focused discussion forum may be easily labeled a "baiter," "flamer," or "troll." Therefore, it seems especially important to make the rules and focus of a discussion forum public to avoid misconceptions about its accepted use.
Taking the bait or feeding the troll refers to someone who responds to the original message regardless of whether they are aware the original message was intended to provoke a response. Often when someone takes the bait, others will point out to them YHBT for "You have been trolled," or reply with "don't feed the trolls."
The conclusion to a flamewar precipitated by flamebait is often determined by recourse to Godwin's Law.

Trolling
"Do not feed the trolls" and its abbreviation DNFTT redirects here. For the Wikipedia essay, see "What is a troll?"
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

Etymology
The contemporary use of the term first appeared on Usenet groups in the late 1980s. It is thought to be a truncation of the phrase trolling for suckers, itself derived from the fishing technique known as trolling. The word likely gained currency because of its apt second meaning, drawn from the trolls portrayed in Scandinavian folklore and children's tales; they are often ugly, obnoxious creatures bent on mischief and wickedness.

Early history
Prior to DejaNews's archiving of Usenet, accounts of trolling were sketchy, there being little evidence to sort through. After that time, however, the huge archives were available for researchers. The most likely derivation of the word troll can be found in the phrase "trolling for newbies," popularized in the early 1990s in the Usenet group, alt.folklore.urban (AFU). Commonly, what is meant is a relatively gentle inside joke by veteran users, presenting questions or topics that had been so overdone that only a new user would respond to them earnestly. For example, a veteran of the group might make a post on the common misconception that glass flows over time. Long-time readers would both recognize the poster's name and know that the topic had been done to death already, but new subscribers to the group would not realise, and would thus respond. These types of trolls served as a Shibboleth to identify group insiders. This definition of trolling, considerably narrower than the modern understanding of the term, was considered a positive contribution. One of the most notorious AFU trollers, Snopes, went on to create his eponymous urban folklore website.
By the late 1990s, alt.folklore.urban had such heavy traffic and participation that trolling of this sort was frowned upon. Others expanded the term to include the practice of playing a seriously misinformed or deluded user, even in newsgroups where one was not a regular; these were often attempts at humor rather than provocation. In such contexts, the noun troll usually referred to an act of trolling, rather than to the author.

Identity trolling
In academic literature, the practice was first documented by Judith Donath (1999), who used several anecdotal examples from various Usenet newsgroups in her discussion. Donath's paper outlines the ambiguity of identity in a disembodied "virtual community":
In the physical world there is an inherent unity to the self, for the body provides a compelling and convenient definition of identity. The norm is: one body, one identity. ... The virtual world is different. It is composed of information rather than matter.
Donath provides a concise overview of identity deception games which trade on the confusion between physical and epistemic community:
Trolling is a game about identity deception, albeit one that is played without the consent of most of the players. The troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group's common interests and concerns; the newsgroups members, if they are cognizant of trolls and other identity deceptions, attempt to both distinguish real from trolling postings, and upon judging a poster a troll, make the offending poster leave the group. Their success at the former depends on how well they — and the troll — understand identity cues; their success at the latter depends on whether the troll's enjoyment is sufficiently diminished or outweighed by the costs imposed by the group.
Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community. Furthermore, in a group that has become sensitized to trolling — where the rate of deception is high — many honestly naïve questions may be quickly rejected as trollings. This can be quite off-putting to the new user who upon venturing a first posting is immediately bombarded with angry accusations. Even if the accusation is unfounded, being branded a troll is quite damaging to one's online reputation." (Donath, 1999, p. 45)

Usage
The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem.
Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities. Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
Frequently, someone who has been labelled a troll by a group may seek to redeem their reputation by discrediting their opponents, for example by claiming that other members of the group are closed-minded, conspirators, or trolls themselves.
Recently, many websites have openly welcomed and encouraged trolling amongst their members.

Concern troll
A concern troll is a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose point of view is opposed to the one that the user's sockpuppet claims to hold. The concern troll posts in web forums devoted to its declared point of view and attempts to sway the group's actions or opinions while claiming to share their goals, but with professed "concerns". The goal is to sow fear, uncertainty and doubt within the group.
For example, in 2006 Tad Furtado, a top staffer for then-Congressman Charlie Bass (R-NH), was caught posing as a "concerned" supporter of Bass's opponent, Democrat Paul Hodes, on several liberal New Hampshire blogs, using the pseudonyms "IndieNH" or "IndyNH." "IndyNH" expressed concern that Democrats might just be wasting their time or money on Hodes, because Bass was unbeatable.
A recently declassified World War II manual on sabotage recommends such techniques to derail any effective action: "Advocate 'caution.' Be 'reasonable' and urge your fellow-conferees to be 'reasonable' and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on... Be worried about the propriety of any decision — raise the question of whether such action as is contemplated lies within the jurisdiction of the group or whether it might conflict with the policy of some higher echelon." OSS Simple Sabotage Manual, pdf
Although the term "concern troll" originated in discussions of online behavior, it now sees increasing use to describe similar behaviors that take place offline.
For example, James Wolcott in Vanity Fair accused a conservative New York Daily News columnist of "concern troll" behavior in his efforts to downplay the Mark Foley scandal. Wolcott links what he calls concern trolls to Saul Alinsky's "Do-Nothings," giving a long quote from Alinsky on the Do-Nothing's method and effects:
These Do-Nothings profess a commitment to social change for ideals of justice, equality, and opportunity, and then abstain from and discourage all effective action for change. They are known by their brand, 'I agree with your ends but not your means.'
In a more recent example, The Hill published an op-ed piece titled "Dems: Ignore 'Concern Trolls'." Again, the concern trolls in question were not Internet participants; they were Republicans offering public advice and warnings to the Democrats. The author defines "concern trolling" as "offering a poisoned apple in the form of advice to political opponents that, if taken, would harm the recipient."


It could have been worse.

You could have been RICK ROLLED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU


:-P
The wheel is turning but the hamster is still dead.

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Jaysen
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Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:17 am Post

wock wrote:An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum

I guess this means
+3 == troll x 3
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:25 am Post

My last word on the subject of Vonnegut.

1. Launch Scrivener.
2. Go to Scrivener: About Scrivener.
3. Scroll down to the bottom of the About panel.
4. Read. And admire KB for his restraint, in not commenting on this topic.

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:42 am Post

Jaysen wrote:
wock wrote:An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum

I guess this means
+3 == troll x 3


ohh the irony :-)

PS:

I thought Starship Troopers II (The Movie) really sucked long and hard. Now I see previews for Starship Troopers III and I shiver.

Starship Troopers II Sucks!
The wheel is turning but the hamster is still dead.

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Mange
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Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:54 am Post

Wock wrote:Flamebait ...
Motives ...
Resolving a flamebait ...
Trolling ...
Etymology ...
Early history ...
Identity trolling ...
Usage ...
Concern troll ...
It could have been worse.

You could have been RICK ROLLED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

:-P

Hi Wock,
Fascinating stuff! I had (of course) heard the term troll(ing) before, but never realized there was so much behind and about it.
And posting it here on this forum on this thread just goes to show that the pen truly is mightier than the sword. (The video, by the way, was, well, embarrassing doesn't really seem enough to describe it... :shock: :D :oops: )

druid wrote:My last word on the subject of Vonnegut.

1. Launch Scrivener.
2. Go to Scrivener: About Scrivener.
3. Scroll down to the bottom of the About panel.
4. Read. And admire KB for his restraint, in not commenting on this topic.


And Druid: what can I say? That too, is hitting it right on the head. (Am I feeding the troll now??) You guys rock.
You made me realize that I am prone to feeding the wrong wolf.
I now feel like a new man. A better man. I just hope I can continue having this feeling.
I do know that I feel it's way more fun writing a positive response but tend to get hung up on the threads that make me want to write that negative one. And of course that doesn't make you feel better, only worse.

So again,
thanks for those two responses/insights.

Mange

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:02 am Post

There's a second AND third Starship Troopers???
I totally missed that.
Wock, I see you don't mention the first one. Can I assume that you liked that one but not the other two?
It's just that I'm in a sci-fi period now and crave movies. And I'm not that picky. I got "Serenity" a while back and although relatively lowbudget I still liked it.
Mange

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:40 pm Post

the first SST made me wish for death. And I like that type of ... dare I say stupid ... scifi movie. I dare not consider viewing II or III. Otherwise I may single handedly attempt to use the Hadron collider to create a black hole large enough to consume all participants of the series.

On to talk of trolls. I prefer mine with green fuzzy hair that is as long as the unit's circumference.

I would add a slightly different spin to troll behavior, pacification and focus. Sometimes we (yes I see myself as a troll) try to steer conversations to less offensive topics. Other times we see something in a statement that interests us so we "fret it out" (which is a craftsmen's term). Ideally I (and the other members of the Troll^3 [henceforth the T^3] aka the +3) do this via humor and/or self deprecation (amongst the T^3) if a straight out query is in appropriate.

But that is just the T^3 and those like us.

Back to the previous suckage of Vonnegut. I find it interesting that (redirection alert) opinions are given such weight. To put it bluntly "who cares?" No one will die from this right? I personally hate strawberries. Who in their right mind would argue that I am wrong to hate them? Even if I get a group of fellow strawberry haters together and we start plastering the forum with anti strawberry posts, is it wrong of us to hate strawberries?

Of course not. Our use of the forum may be in appropriate, but our OPINION is valid. By restricting my right to an opinion you leave yourself open to the same restriction. So if druid and I happen to think that Vonnegut does NOT suck we can express ourselves with the same freedom that we allow others.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:33 pm Post

Jaysen wrote:Back to the previous suckage of Vonnegut. I find it interesting that (redirection alert) opinions are given such weight. To put it bluntly "who cares?" No one will die from this right? I personally hate strawberries. Who in their right mind would argue that I am wrong to hate them? Even if I get a group of fellow strawberry haters together and we start plastering the forum with anti strawberry posts, is it wrong of us to hate strawberries?


The difference, as I see it, is that (unless you are deeply religious and pushing it to the extreme) you are not dismissing or insulting someone's life's work (or in fact, dismissing that person entirely) by saying that "strawberries suck". I don't think anyone has a problem with people not liking a particular author. I think what they objected to is the claim that the person "sucks. Boringly". There is a marked difference between saying "I didn't like X" (or even "I thought X was drivel") and stating (as fact, not opinion) that something "sucks".

I have no opinion on Vonnegut since I haven't read any of his books, I may well dislike them as well. But there are ways to communicate that without resorting to the infantile "he sucks". That kind of argument sucks, and boringly so.

flow wrote:no wonder his writing sucks.

and yes to both questions.


Since you consider it perfectly appropriate to dismiss someone's work and life so flippantly, and to even offer yourself in direct comparison as someone who "lived as much" and "wrote that well" at 23, feel free to provide the supporting evidence of:
a) what you did at that age that you consider comparable to a concentration camp; and
b) a sample of your 'superior' writing from that time period.

Sadly, I think the posters here would treat your response with more respect than you afford others.

Matt

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:45 pm Post

Well well I guess I must whip out the list.

Yup. This thread will be "The List's" debut appearance on this forum!

:-)

Instead of getting angry or upset at someone's elses opinion or flippant remark I savor the moment to use


THE LIST
Heheheh

here goes!

The List wrote:Dear: (Insert name of poster here)

[ ] Clueless Newbie
[ ] Loser
[ ] AOL-er
[ ] 12 year old
[x] Troll
[ ] Pervert
[ ] Geek
[ ] Spammer
[ ] Wannabe
[ ] Asskisser
[ ] l337 d00d
[ ] Flamer
[ ] Whiner
[ ] Other: ___________

You Are Being Flamed Because

[ ] You posted a .99999... = 1 thread
[ ] You posted a Release Date thread
[ ] You posted a Patch thread
[ ] You posted a PC vs Mac thread
[ ] You posted a System Specifications thread
[ ] You posted a ( Insert Random RPG ) vs Diablo 2 thread
[ ] You posted a StarCraft vs WarCraft 3 thread
[x] You posted a (Insert Name) sucks thread.
[ ] You continued a long, stupid thread
[ ] You committed crimes against pork by-products
[ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
[ ] You posted a my class sucks *cry* thread
[ ] You haven't read the stickies
[ } You didn't read the tutorial
[ ] You didn't read the FAQs
[ ] You don't know which forum to post in
[ ] You just plain suck
[ ] You posted false information
[ ] You posted something totally uninteresting
[ ] You double posted
[ ] You posted in the wrong language
[ ] YOU POSTED A MESSAGE ALL WRITTEN IN CAPS
[ ] You posted racist crap
[ ] You posted sexist crap
[ ] I don't like your tone of voice
[ ] You attempted to make a non-political thread political
[ ] You are not civilized enough to post in these forums
[ ] Yuo mispeled evry sengle wurd

In Punishment, You Must:

[x] Give up your AOL Internet account
[ ] STFU & GTFO
[ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[ ] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read the f****** FAQ
[ ] Go to your room with no supper
[x] Apologize to everybody on this forum
[ ] Go stand in the middle of a Highway
[ ] Recite the Greek alphabet backwards
[ ] Take a bath in bleach
[ ] Star in an infomercial
[ ] Sell your only copy of Guitar Hero
[ ] Drink out of a spittoon
[ ] All of the above

In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[ ] Blow me
[ ] Get a life
[x] Troll Elsewhere
[ ] Never post again
[ ] I pity your dog
[ ] Go to Hell
[ ] Your IQ must be 7
[ ] Take your rejection somewhere else
[ ] STFU & GTFO
[ ] Learn to post
[ ] Go jump into some industrial equipment
[ ] All of the above
[ ] IBTL
==============================================


The preceding Forum Flame Form was constructed for use on posts not worthy of actual thought or effort in being flamed. Posts so STUPID that a simple copy/paste and a few check marks is all that's necessary to properly relay the flamer's contempt for the flame.

Your post has been identified as such. This flame was brought to you in under 10 seconds of your post being read.
Thank and have a good day.


Humor is the best offense in the universe.

Starship Troopers!

Starship Troopers 2: Hero of the Federation

Starship Troopers 3: Marauder

I did like the first one because of DIna Meyer. Butt kickin Chicks with big guns! :-) gets me every time. THe movie was lame, the script lame, and the production was lame. But that Dina Meyer sold me. :-P

The second one was nothing closely related tot he first one but rather a real low budget horror movie. If it was named and themed different then I would have liked it better but trying to make a Starship Troopers B horror flick was just lame. Didn;t even have any of the actors from the first movie.

The third one has Rico return? And they are really pusing the lame B look presentation with the "federation commercials", etc?

Booooooooooooo


As to the original topic. This thread was born as a critics review. The presentation was a little too informal when the suck word was used and I think that may have riled the feathers of a few readers in its blunt critical review of this Vonnegut dude.

Truthfully I do not even know who this guy is much less have I ever read his stuff. Maybe he is genius. Maybe he sucks? Maybe he has a pet frog that has pocket so he can shoot the snake.

It doesn't really matter. What does matter is I finally got to use my LIST lol!

All in jest and fun!

Now I am a huge troll (+3). I am also a known thread hijacker, a big mispeller, grammar abuser, link spammer, and sometimes my satire is a little dry and can be offensive to some.

But in the end I am just a flying rodent who is making attempts at writing novels that would drive any editor mad and would make Red Pen makers salivate at the increase in sales!

I can only speak 3 languages.

English
Engrish and Slang
and
Southern Engrish

And I can Google with the best of them.

But I cannot say whether Vonnegut sucks or not because I have never read any of his work.

But I have read plenty of Louis L'Amour and let me tell you. That man could write!




Hmmm. I just realized.


I suck
The wheel is turning but the hamster is still dead.

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Jaysen
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Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:07 pm Post

Matt,

I think you are correct in pointing out the glaring deficiencies of my argument using strawberries. You also help me make my point. No one is being killed. No one is being hurt (unless Vonnegut is reading the forum). It isn't until we become extremists that we really need to consider condemn a publicly stated opinion no matter how poorly it was expressed.

Matt (second half),

Interesting take. I look forward to seeing a reply, but would ask you this, what if the experience is there? What if some of us think the writing holds up? Have we really resolved the issue?

Your last statement is true of many posters, but you may be on to something here.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:43 pm Post

Jaysen wrote:the first SST made me wish for death.


You should be publicly flogged with Vic-ks collar and forced to drink beer only twice a day for a whole month for this blasphemy!

Dina Meyers + Big Guns + Space Ships + Doogie Houser + B Script and Graphics = Hollywood Mega Hit!

We are talking academy awards, Oscars! Film Festival Revivals and 1 hour episodes of VH1's "Where Are They Now!"

<shaking head>

That was like saying something like "Duck Tape won't fix that."
The wheel is turning but the hamster is still dead.

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:17 pm Post

Wock wrote:
Jaysen wrote:the first SST made me wish for death.


You should be publicly flogged with Vic-ks collar and forced to drink beer only twice a day for a whole month for this blasphemy!

You clearly did not comprehend my post on each of us being allowed to have opinions. I did not say that the movie "sucks" or that the actors deserve to die, but that I wished for death. the implication being my death.

Stinking bird troll hybrid.

Wock wrote:That was like saying something like "Duck Tape won't fix that."

This ... this is going to far. You now accuse duck tape of being inadequate! How dare you?! As you are well aware Duck Tape is used for emergency repairs for MILITARY aircraft. For you to suggest that it is inadequate for your needs is preposterous.


See this is how you troll.

Pigeon, meet you out back for a bear in 10.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:10 pm Post

GASP!
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Now that was funny! Nice Trolling. Beer sounds good about now. hehehe
The wheel is turning but the hamster is still dead.