Forced constant beta update

Am
Amcmo

Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:40 am Post

takirks wrote: Although, I suppose there is the fact that most of us wouldn' t be here in the first place, if we were well-balanced and sane individuals. As opposed to "creatives", who mostly seem to delight in being self-involved, ungrateful, and generally obtuse.

Not everybody, obviously, but there are enough of that description posting here bitching about things they've no right to complain about that I'm becoming increasingly confirmed in my intent to never, ever involve myself in any sort of "writers group" in person. There's a word in German that has no equivalent in English, and it comes to mind every time I read these threads: Backpfeifengesicht.


1. Many of us are 'creatives', however MOST of we 'creatives' do appreciate the amazing efforts by the L&L team and our obligations as beta testers - contribute if we can and accept we play by L&L's rules in the beta - The customer is most definitely not always right in that scenario.

2. Backpfeifengesicht - roughly, 'a face in need of a fist'. Now I'm a non-violent person but occasionally I do say FFS and bash my head on the desk to subdue the urge to reach through the web, grab someone by the scruff of the neck and yell 'Are you f... serious?'

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garpu
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Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:30 am Post

takirks wrote:Some of y'all need to carefully review your understanding of the term "beta test", and wrap your heads around the concept that the world does not revolve around you and your needs.


A bit blunt, but it's a fair point. However...

Although, I suppose there is the fact that most of us wouldn' t be here in the first place, if we were well-balanced and sane individuals. As opposed to "creatives", who mostly seem to delight in being self-involved, ungrateful, and generally obtuse.


For real? Are you actually in an industry with "creatives?" That doesn't describe anyone I know personally, be it in writing, music, or ballet. The whole myth of the tortured genius went out with absinthe bars and people coughing into silk hankies with consumption. "Self-involved, ungrateful, and generally obtuse" doesn't get you gigs.

Not to mention, of course, that your description is horribly abelist.

There's a word in German that has no equivalent in English, and it comes to mind every time I read these threads: Backpfeifengesicht.


If you're threatening violence (that is, literally,"a face whistling for a pipe"), you likely won't be asked to join many writers' groups, either.
Slackware-current 64-bit, XFCE

li
liz
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Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:35 am Post

"Backpfeifengesicht" is the thought that often occurs to me also when I read the Scrivener forum, but for a different reason.

A user offered feedback, and a couple of other users agreed with the feedback. I personally agree with the feedback too. Now, I use a lot of beta software, I completely understand the whole beta concept and the kinds of constraints developers have to work with. The Scrivener beta is by far the biggest pain-in-the-ass beta I have ever dealt with, and the lockout is a major reason why. I actually mark the beta expiration on my calendar, which I feel is more impingement on my life than a beta software product should be making. I'm also skeptical that it's really necessary to do this to avoid redundant bug reports from multiple versions.

And now we've gotten around forty responses from self-appointed L&L defenders who use the forum to tell people who offer product feedback they don't personally agree with that they are stupid, incompetent complainers. There's a lot of that on this forum. Backpfeifengesicht indeed.

I won't be checking this thread again, so don't bother insulting me too.

Am
Amcmo

Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:51 am Post

liz wrote:And now we've gotten around forty responses from self-appointed L&L defenders who use the forum to tell people who offer product feedback they don't personally agree with that they are stupid, incompetent complainers. There's a lot of that on this forum. Backpfeifengesicht indeed.

I won't be checking this thread again, so don't bother insulting me too.


Not a matter of insulting, however, someone made a suggestion that one or two people, you included agreed with. The vast majority did not and continue to work within the bounds of L&L's beta policy.

The so-called 'self-appointed L&L defenders' (who's insulting whom?) pointed out the beta process which has been explained on the forum multiple times by L&L staff, yet one or two of those that wanted a change keep laboring the point, wanting a special change just for them, including in one case telling others they had no right to post because they didn't agree with that poster and weren't L&L staff.

Seems from here and other threads, when anyone makes a demand/request that is outside of, for instance the beta process, or demands that there 'be consequences' for a late release, and anyone explains reality, those few continue to argue the toss endlessly and then accuse anyone not agreeing with them of being self-appointed L&L defenders, bullies, insulters, etc,, much as you have and claim the victim role.

I'm not saying these questions shouldn't be raised, but after the process, or why a request is not viable, has been explained, and the poster makes the third or forth restatement of the demand it starts to wear a little thin.

Should add, I'm not L&L staff, so not speaking for them, and I have seen them step in in there is any suggestion of bullying etc.

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kewms
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Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:36 am Post

The official position of Literature & Latte is that if you find beta expirations overly disruptive, you should not use beta software for that particular project.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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Gothelittle
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Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:26 pm Post

Beta lockouts only really happen if you miss one. Like, let's say you update January 28th, and it says this one expires February 15th. Then you don't use the software again. But everyone else, 'round February 12th or so, updates to a version that holds until, let's say, February 28th. You won't get locked out and need to download the file from the website unless you shut Scrivener down on February 11th or earlier, and don't open it again until March 1st or later.

It happened to me once, on my netbook, which I only use for writing when I'm on the move.

As for Mr. Insult, yeeeeeah... I'm very glad you don't live anywhere near me. See, I am highly creative and neurodivergent. I am also not 'self-involved' or ungrateful. I won't venture an opinion on whether I am 'obtuse'; I've heard claims in both directions. But being self-involved, you see, doesn't make good art. To write well, you need to experience life. When people ask how they can become better writers, one of my responses is invariably, "Have a day job." Your well has to be filled before you can draw anything of use from it. Beta readers for the book I'm working on publishing have described my style as both readable and enjoyable precisely *because* it is a "well-grounded flight of fancy". Now, wouldn't it be a shame, or maybe you wouldn't think so, if you did live near me, and you did decide to punch me in the face simply because I am a creative person, and then you happened to find out that I'm not the person you decided to disdain so deeply?

Am
Amcmo

Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:44 pm Post

For those who don't understand why all the beta versions and those complaining of the time it has taken to get V3 to Prime Time and demanding 'consequences' for the delays.

This from the Scrivener 3 Windows Facebook group.
'Those of you (if any) who have Scrivener for Mac V3 may have used the amazing help feature. Typing in a help search for a menu command will result in that menu being displayed with the option to simply click. This results from the amazing built in developer tools within MacOS. There is nothing equivalent within Windows, however Lee and Tiho, the developers have managed to achieve something remarkably similar.
While we're chomping at the bit for full release of Scrivener 3 for Windows, this is an example of the creative work going in to make Scrivener a stand out amongst Windows applications. The Windows search result doesn't (at the moment?)allow simply clicking on the result to jump to action the menu item, but great nonetheless.
'
I'm amazed that Lee and Tiho have achieved this with none of the built in development aids that MacOS has. Also makes me hold the Apple MacOS team in higher regard that they make such tools available to everyone for free.

***Update on this!****, While the example below doesn't appear to set the 'Show...' flag on the menu, just tested on Snapshot command and it does in fact jump directly to a Label Snapshot dialog - woohoo!

Lee, Tiho, 'we are not worthy!'
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MG
MG Martin
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Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:54 am Post

1. I like Betas and being a beta-tester. (ooh! new shiney thing! :D )
2. Updtes don't bother me as it is what happens in a beta. :wink:
3. L&L tells youin advance when the beta expiers etc.... Which is a LOT more than youget with other betas :lol:
4. In a beta, I always do a clean install. In this case, the uninstall, download, and new install are very quick. So, quick, it's not even worth dwelling over. :shock:
5. Finally, No one forces you to be a beta-tester :roll:

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devinganger
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Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:40 am Post

MG Martin wrote:In a beta, I always do a clean install. In this case, the uninstall, download, and new install are very quick. So, quick, it's not even worth dwelling over.


It's a little more of a time sink if you've made a lot of modifications to the UI and to your Scrivener options, especially as part of the work in the beta has been fixing UI and preference issues...

...but again, that's the nature of beta testing.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

sb
sbradabang
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Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:53 am Post

Adding my two cents to this thread; perhaps I'm repeating what others said, but:
  • Beta is free. You didn't pay for it, did you?
  • No one forced you to participate in beta program. It's up to you.
  • Beta is for trying the software and finding bugs, not for work. If you need Scrivener for your job, stick to stable version 1.9.x.
  • If L&L decided to enforce beta expiration dates, well, this is the name of the game. Again, no one forced you to use beta versions.
I'm just pleased with the hard work they're doing building a 3.x version for Windows from scratch; the only downside I see about these beta versions is that pesky dialog "This Scrivener for Windows Beta will expire yadayadayada" that pops up every time I launch Scrivener; can't I just tell it "Acknowledged" and take the risk of forgetting the expiration date and having to download the updated version to do a clean install?

Tw
Twolane
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Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:14 am Post

Trigger warning here: I'm another happy Beta user, but...

Can we not have the Beta load automatically every day? You know, like when I wake up and make coffee and putz around the kitchen, why can't the software know when I'm ready to write and already be onscreen?

Furthermore, is it possible to code the software such that it knows what keys I want to hit so my story issues forth more better and comes out faster an' stuff? Ya, like that. Thx.

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Gothelittle
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Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:45 pm Post

Yesterday afternoon, I needed to use a piece of software, not Scrivener, something else, that was in beta. I opened it to find that the beta had expired. I had to go to the website, find the one I was using, and download the latest version, then install it. It doesn't have the in-program update feature that Scrivener 3 Beta has, you see.

I will offer this, though. It would be kind of nice if, when Scrivener's Beta was done updating, it auto-re-opened. Maybe enough other people would find this a problem that there's a good reason it's not a feature, or maybe nobody's asked about it yet, and I may be a bit late to think about such things anyways if it's going live in February. But I'll throw that out there.

Still, I've no reason or desire to gripe if that doesn't get done. As if it hurts me to click on the Start Menu and select the application again. You know something, I've found that I have to slow myself down to write properly. I have to be a little more deliberate. I have to stay out of the Instant Gratification mode of thinking. Literature doesn't lend itself well to Instant Gratification.

Neither does Latte.

Am
Amcmo

Sat Feb 01, 2020 6:13 pm Post

Still, I've no reason or desire to gripe if that doesn't get done. As if it hurts me to click on the Start Menu and select the application again.


Because I can’t handle the delay of clicking the Start menu, I pin Scrivener to the task bar. Saves precious writing seconds. :D

ta
takirks
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Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:53 pm Post

In this thread, we learn that toxic people don't like being called on their toxicity, and that reasonable people are reasonable...

Some of y'all who're complaining might want to take a long, hard look in the mirror, and then contemplate just why so many Linux-based open-source software projects die on the vine. Some of it comes down to overly ambitious developers trying to achieve way more than is possible in that arena, but there's a not inconsiderable number of projects whose own users killed them off by making the lives of the developers unpleasant and generally miserable. There are a couple of commercial projects I can think of that have gone the same way, because the companies behind them came to the conclusion that their customers were impossible to please, and so they wrote that entire program off, root and branch.

I like L & L, and find their approach to writing and releasing software to be a refreshing change of pace in an industry that often releases products well before they are ready for prime time, and then charges people to serve as involuntary beta testers--And, then charges again for the next update once they have the bugs worked out.

As such, I would prefer to offer encouragement and positive vibes towards the staff working on v.3, and reiterate my pleasure at the current state of affairs. Those complaining about things regarding this really ought to spend some time working in other industries--I've spent upwards of $5,000.00 on a software package that was clearly unfit for purpose, being forced into that by other considerations, and I had to pay $1,200.00 a year for a "maintenance contract" in order to have access to the updates and other little things like support for a program whose engine hadn't been updated since the days of MS-DOS 4.0. All they did was port it over to work under later versions, and you had to have your registry virtually rewritten by the tech support folks if you wanted it to work. Do not get me started on what it's like to deal with a company that has a virtual monopoly on one esoteric bit of the industry, and who doesn't give a rat's ass about the customers at all. If you want to know what it feels like to be a victim of parasitic vampirism, I could point you to the company I'm thinking of. I don't think you'll like it, at all.

So, yeah... L & L are my favorite exemplars of "how to do software sales and development right". Y'all simply have no real perspective on how bad it can be, especially for a small market like this one.

wo
wordjoy
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Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:17 pm Post

Scrivner Beta Writers Block:
Syndrome where people who have nothing good to write, pretend the Beta is stopping them from writing and then are offended when other writers point out to them that it's not really a big deal to install the software. They demand censorship and that only one opinion be on their thread. "Censorship is a very odd stand for a writer"

Hint: If you miss the auto-update, you can keep writing your "Creative" work while it downloads if you have a very slow internet. Then save. Then install.


FACT:
Shakspere wrote with a feather that dripped ink at the end.
J.K Rowling became the richest writer ever writing on a paper note pad.

The Beta update cycle is not what keeps you from writing, it only affects when you CHOOSE to let it affect you..

Cure:
Large Spoon of accountability
Small doses of just staring at your page until inspired or take a shower that often helps free the mind.

Personally I recommend L&L close future betas after 3 is released.
Require a signed agreement and retain the right to remove people from the beta that violate the agreement.