Forced constant beta update

Am
Amcmo

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:51 am Post

martienne wrote:Make a statement to thank Beta testers for participating and for their patience, and explain why the project ended up taking so much longer than originally communicated. Say that you understand that many people moved to Beta in the belief that it would run for a limited time only, after which we could move on to the first RC. Then offer some options that show you aren't just going to steam roll your most loyal and keen users,


I’m sorry, but that is not much short of ridiculous. L&L have multiple times thanked users for their patience, apologised for delay and explained the process. No customers are being steamrolled, though you continued harping looks to me like an attempt to steamroll L&L to turn their process on its head just for you and possibly one or two others at most.

Be offended if you wish, however I (and apparently most other posters) struggle to understand your continued demands after L&L and others have explained the beta process to you multiple times.

L&L have a team of 2 dedicated Win developers. You are demanding they turn their process around, suffer added complexity because you find having to update from time to time (5-10 minutes every month or so up to now and every week or two for possibly the next month at most (we hope)).

If you’re not willing to follow the L&L beta policy wherever that leads don’t sign on in the first place or drop out. Yes we’re all wishing development had been much shorter, but that’s life - get over it . Try to be happy the expected release is so close.

With the last minute rush towards full release (hopefully in the next month per L&L post) I’m sure the L&L team have a damn site more important work to do than to indulge petulant demands for 3 month expiry.

User avatar
martienne
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:58 am
Platform: Win + iOS
Location: Finland

Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:58 pm Post

This thread iwas not intended for those users who love the bi weekly forced updates, for whatever strange reason.
If you want to express that, perhaps start another separate thread, The thread was started by somebody who is unhappy with the situation and others, like me, who feel the same way chimed in.
My suggestion would allow you lovers of forced updates to keep doing it, but allow the rest of us to opt out. I already explained my reasons. To keep iterating how awesome you think this waste of time is, is insulting to those of us who are expressing that we had enough. You are currently having it your way and nobody wants to stop you from continuing. As far as I am concerned you can update every day, if you want. Just give the rest of us who have better things to do a rest!

I already explained that a 6 month regime of this is normal and what you would expect for a Beta. Not 2-3 years!

I would like to hear from Literature and Latte (nobody else!) why you couldn't offer - out of respect for customers who participated in your Beta for all this time -- a break now.

All of these options are technically feasible, uncomplicated and commonly use in the industry:

1) Stay on the current beta until the new version is available for purchase, at which time the Beta expires.
2) Voluntary opt-in for monthly / bi-weekly new versions,
3) Give each beta version a 3 month life span, regardless of whether there has been a new release, or not,

User avatar
jasonb
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:23 pm
Platform: Windows

Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:40 pm Post

Nothing about a beta program (this or any other) is forced.

Beta programs are offered to customers free of charge. Some companies don't even offer them at all. Companies are under no obligation to offer beta programs to anyone, nor under any obligation to adhere to any kind of procedure at all for their beta programs.

Customers can choose to take part in what is being offered to them. Or they can choose to pass, and wait for something they pay for and which is officially supported.

Being able to partake in a beta program is similar to being given a free car. It's a gift—a privilege and not a right.

You can provide input if you want (within the guidelines of the program). You can even suggest changes to how things are done. But complaining about how they are done is counterproductive. Nobody who participates in a beta program is entitled to anything.

Complaining about an aspect of a beta program is like complaining about how awful it is for the free car you were given to be a colour you don't like—and trying to demand that the free car be painted a different colour because the person giving it to you should have known better.

Perhaps updates to this program could be handled differently. I'm sure that suggestions for handling them differently would be positively received if they were couched in a positive light rather than in a negative light. There's no responsibility on the part of the company to make any changes, but the likelihood of there being a change is much greater if everybody is happy with the process—and if they don't feel as if they have to defend themself in some way for something that they didn't have to provide in the first place.

Am
Amcmo

Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:02 pm Post

I would like to hear from Literature and Latte (nobody else!) why you couldn't offer - out of respect for customers who participated in your Beta for all this time -- a break now.


As has been explained at great length, this is a beta program you join at L&L’s pleasure. You have no entitlements. Out of respect for L&L and their providing free access to the beta, accept the process instead of demanding it be changed just to keep you (out of hundreds of beta users?) happy.

As for demanding only L&L staff respond to you, this is a forum. By definition all forum members are entitled to respond and many have, pointing out the realities of a FREE beta. Demanding you have your own private discussion with L&L on the public forum will endear you to no one.

And a final reminder, the lead developer (of 2) has stated they HOPE to release the final version within the month.

Why would they spend 1 second changing the process just to satisfy 1 (insert insult of choice), when they have so much else to concentrate on to deliver the final product. (To great cheering and gratitude from *all* the beta users and other customers.)

User avatar
alexxtholden
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:50 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Boulevard of Broken Themes
Contact:

Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:47 pm Post

I’ve been using various and multiple versions of Scrivener for a long time - like a really long time - and I’ve been in this beta since it was available to be in. I don’t post a lot but I follow the channel logs and update notes and I pretty regularly let them know on social media how great their progress has been throughout because, you know, it’s a lot of work.

Despite some of the main features of compile missing or not working, and a few other issues, it’s been stable and even awesome for writing in for a while now. Which, I guess, is really the point: the writing. If the beta doesn’t meet your standards and its functionality is affecting your writing, then you may want to roll back to the latest official release version. This isn’t finalized software and it would be an understandable decision to make, if your productivity is negative impacted.

Personally, I’d kill for a weekly update. No pressure y’all. :wink:
Fiction writer for 25 years.
Scrivener user for 10 years.
Scrivener 3 (beta) for Windows 10 on Surfacebook.
Scrivener 3 for Mac on MacBook Pro.
Scrivener for iOS on iPhone 8 Plus.

Go
Gothelittle
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:05 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:14 am Post

martienne wrote:This thread iwas not intended for those users who love the bi weekly forced updates, for whatever strange reason.
If you want to express that, perhaps start another separate thread, The thread was started by somebody who is unhappy with the situation and others, like me, who feel the same way chimed in.


"Only complainers allowed in this thread"?

That may create a false impression of the number of complainers versus the number of people who are participating in the beta as beta testers and understand the process. It is more useful for those who disagree to disagree, and not try to shut people up when their message does not agree with yours.

Continue to complain, if you wish, and read - or don't read - the various posts with various people explaining patiently to you that you have stumbled upon a process which you do not appear to understand and yet took part in of your own free will, or go use 1.9 if you really are that bothered by the beta program update cycle... but you are not going to reduce the number of posts answering your complaint by telling people who have answers for your complaint that they must not reply.

Am
Amcmo

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:47 am Post

Slightly different twist - L&L, I want to be forced to load a new beta every week (or less) as long as the full release is around Mid Feb.

I have a bet with a certain other on the forum that V3 will be related in Feb - Hate to kiss $50 goodbye - enough to pay for both our upgrades. (How's that for putting pressure on Tiho)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I know... you don't comment on specific dates :)

Go
Gothelittle
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:05 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:09 pm Post

I might point out, by the way, that the complaint is about ten-day betas... but the latest beta was released on the 28th and is good to the 15th. So, 18 days, if I have my math right.

sh
shinykari
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:15 pm
Platform: Mac + Windows

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:35 pm Post

I'll chime in and say that the constant updates are extremely annoying. Worse, though, is that if one beta expires, I'm not able to update from the application, but have to manually navigate to the L&L webpage, find the right forum, and download the new beta from my browser. That's a massive inconvenience. At the very least, the expired beta should auto-update to the newest version.

And for those of you saying we are using this application at L&L's "pleasure," stop. L&L is a company. It's no longer one writer graciously sharing a program he wrote for his own use. Businesses are held to a higher standard, as well they should be. It's not a personal attack to say that a company can do better.

Ru
Ruth_less
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:27 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:42 pm Post

As somebody who doesn't always get around to writing regularly, the constant updates do throw me off my groove as well. I open the program, ready to write--only to find that I can't, because I have to wait for the download. If you don't open the program every day (which lately, unfortunately, I haven't), it really does end up feeling like you have to update it every single time.

I agree with shinykari that in the very least, expired betas should auto-update. Navigating to the site when the program clearly has the ability to download new editions is an extra unneeded frustration.

I am honestly very, very ready to pay money for the new edition of Scrivener if it just means not having to update so often. Every 10-15 days is entirely too much.

jl
jljovano
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue May 06, 2014 9:08 am
Platform: Linux + Windows

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:07 pm Post

1) beta is free
2) beta is ment to help the team correct the bugs and finish the V3 for Windows.
3) you can use 1.9 if you paid for it. It is the real thing for now.
4) when V3 is released, it will NOT be updated so often (we can hope :p) and you will NEVER be forced to update. You will have to pay your licence, though.
5) beta autoupdate, except if you "pass" a version. This is not much a hassle,, imho
6) cheers ;)

If you use this beta version, you should accept the rules. If not, do not use it. (I do not want to be rude, excuse my bad english if I am. I'm also waiting for v3 impatiently)

Ruth_less wrote:As somebody who doesn't always get around to writing regularly, the constant updates do throw me off my groove as well. I open the program, ready to write--only to find that I can't, because I have to wait for the download. If you don't open the program every day (which lately, unfortunately, I haven't), it really does end up feeling like you have to update it every single time.

I agree with shinykari that in the very least, expired betas should auto-update. Navigating to the site when the program clearly has the ability to download new editions is an extra unneeded frustration.

I am honestly very, very ready to pay money for the new edition of Scrivener if it just means not having to update so often. Every 10-15 days is entirely too much.

wo
wordjoy
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:26 am
Platform: Windows

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:17 pm Post

martienne wrote:Here are SEVERAL technically feasible and commonly used techniques for solving this and regaining the goodwill of those of us who are now fed up:

Make a statement to thank Beta testers for participating and for their patience, and explain why the project ended up taking so much longer than originally communicated. Say that you understand that many people moved to Beta in the belief that it would run for a limited time only, after which we could move on to the first RC. Then offer some options that show you aren't just going to steam roll your most loyal and keen users. Perhaps:

1) Stay on the current beta until the new version is available for purchase, at which time the Beta expires.
2) Voluntary opt-in for monthly / bi-weekly new versions,
3) Give each beta version a 3 month life span, regardless of whether there has been a new release, or not,


Importanct FACT:
The software beta is not there to SERVE YOU. It is there for the user community to SERVE the software development process. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

Your proposals are about easing your use of a FREE BETA, for YOUR NEEDS and your assumption that there is a standard length of time for a BETA also shows a general lack of understanding of the process.

Beta versions are time-locked and NOW very short to decrease the time until you can buy the software and the relationship switches and you trade money for service to you. Keeping it open and unexpired would slow the process as it people like you would run old software, report old bugs, wasting valuable time and also not FIND the new bugs that need to be fixed to reach a release version.

If any of this feels WRONG to you, then you are not a beta tester and should not be using beta software. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you have the self-awareness to play to your skills and not harm the process of others who have a different skill set like testing and software development.

To misquote the late President Kennedy: "Ask not what your beta program can do you, but what you can do for your beta program."

User avatar
pigfender
Posts: 2818
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:25 am
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: I share a head with a great many personalities
Contact:

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:13 pm Post

There are very good reasons why betas have to have forced expiry and short lifespans.

Betas have short lifespans as the developers need to be able to make quick code fixes and then get them tested on lots of different system configurations to get feedback as quickly as possible. Longer betas mean more time between iterations, and a much longer delay to final release.

Betas have forced expiry because the developers need to know when bugs are reported that testers are using the latest version of the beta that represents the latest iteration of the code. Allowing user bases to have more than one version active greatly increases programme administration effort, and is very inefficient for developer time - again leading to a much longer delay to final release.

Updating frequently, much like reporting bugs as we find them, is the small price we pay for getting early use of the software and for having pride in having played our own little but important part in making something really cool.
http://www.pigfender.com | http://www.novelinaday.com
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
Image Image

DC
DCLinguist
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:59 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:47 pm Post

I am definitely being forced to do something by these constant beta updates.

I'm being forced to engage with my book every single day, and make sure that I'm working on it at home, at work, and while out and about so that all three of my computers pick up any updates to the beta. And since I just blew past the deadline from my publisher, that is an excellent, excellent thing.

Can I keep this as a feature of V 3.0? :mrgreen:

ta
takirks
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:42 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:46 pm Post

Y'know... When you log on the forum, and find yourself wondering how you've managed to mistake "The Customer is not Always Right" for the Scrivener forum, that's not a good reflection on the customer base here.

Some of y'all need to carefully review your understanding of the term "beta test", and wrap your heads around the concept that the world does not revolve around you and your needs. Although, I suppose there is the fact that most of us wouldn' t be here in the first place, if we were well-balanced and sane individuals. As opposed to "creatives", who mostly seem to delight in being self-involved, ungrateful, and generally obtuse.

Not everybody, obviously, but there are enough of that description posting here bitching about things they've no right to complain about that I'm becoming increasingly confirmed in my intent to never, ever involve myself in any sort of "writers group" in person. There's a word in German that has no equivalent in English, and it comes to mind every time I read these threads: Backpfeifengesicht.