Forced constant beta update

sw
swisspete
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Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:36 pm Post

We've been in beta for ever. So it's one thing that scrivener just does not get much love on windows, but being forced to update manually every 30 days, or in this case, 10 days is just not..very respectful of our time as users. Have an auto-update feature. Allow more time between updates. Make it easy for us to do get updates.

Scrivener is a nice product, but there is no doubt in my mind that LL does not have windows users in mind too much.

Tw
Twolane
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Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:23 pm Post

Umm, have you tried F12 / General / Startup / Automatically check for updates? It presumes that you close the program every once in a while, of course.

Am
Amcmo

Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:20 am Post

but being forced to update manually every 30 days, or in this case, 10 days is just not..very respectful of our time as users


Sorry, but it's VERY respectful.

We get regular updates to confirm fixes are working as intended in the broader beta community (as opposed to in the 'lab')

As we get closer to release the L&L team need timely confirmation of these last minute changes.

Anyone not prepared to accept the beta process would be best advised not to get on the train in the first place.

Al
AliaA
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Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:37 pm Post

Wow, there are some really mean responses here. I can't tell if the last one is from an employee or a user, but I'm hoping it's not an employee. If anyone said that to one of my customers, as the PM in tech, they would be immediately reported to their manager and in serious trouble. You don't have to actually do anything about feedback, of course, but kill with kindness and your customers will smile while you don't fix any of their problems.

I'll support the original poster with some modifications caveoted with that I don't close scrivener basically ever. I have had a problem where when I boot up Scrivener after an update occurs, it tells me to update but doesn't give me a way to do so in product. So I have to come download the update and apply it. If I keep it open forever, then I don't have to do that and I can keep using the product and update at my convenience, like right when I'm going to close. If the issue I've had with updates is already resolved (given that I've been avoiding it for months), please feel free to ignore. But I would assume we are also beta testing the updates feature. In the eventual release (should it ever come), presumably updating would work the same way. In which case, a delay feature is very important.

Now I will go back to actually having to close scrivener because windows needs to update... sigh.

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rdale
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Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:47 pm Post

The update feature works, but only until the expiration date. It's doubtful there will be many more betas, but just in case, put a reminder on your calendar to use the Help->Check for Updates menu the day before and/or the day of that expiration.
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devinganger
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Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:47 pm Post

There are several reasons why not closing Scrivener is a bad idea.
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kewms
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Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:54 pm Post

This the first post in this thread by an L&L employee.

Expiring beta versions are pretty standard: it's a waste of everyone's time to have people reporting bugs that have already been fixed.

I don't recommend leaving Scrivener open when you're away from it, *especially* if you're using a beta version. Beta versions are, by definition, more likely to have memory leaks and other bugs that can do bad things to your data in your absence. Leaving Scrivener open is an extremely bad idea if you access your projects from multiple devices: you're practically begging for a synchronization error in that case.

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Am
Amcmo

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:41 pm Post

Wow, there are some really mean responses here. I can't tell if the last one is from an employee or a user, but I'm hoping it's not an employee. If anyone said that to one of my customers, as the PM in tech, they would be immediately reported to their manager and in serious trouble. You don't have to actually do anything about feedback, of course, but kill with kindness and your customers will smile while you don't fix any of their problems.


I am not and have never claimed to be an L&L employee.

There was nothing mean about my response, just a statement of fact. L&L are very up front about the beta process and that process is consistent with that from most every company with a beta program from Apple, Microsoft all the way down to a 2 developer team (L&L).

If you don’t have the latest beta you don’t have the fixes, including the ability to compile.

If anyone said that to one of my customers, as the PM in tech, they would be immediately reported to their manager and in serious trouble.
as a manager of the top performing tech support team for a major multinational (98%+ positive) I would have no issue with a member of my team saying pretty much that (depending in on tone) and would support them all the way up the chain.

Why anyone would want to remain on an old version instead of the later one beggars belief. As for leaving Scrivener open to prevent an old beta expiring.... Dumb in the extreme.

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martienne
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Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:30 am Post

I too agree with the original poster that it's a nuisance.

Anyone who's saying "well don't use the Beta then, if you don't like the setup" is forgetting that the current version of Scrivener for Windows is ancient and that the new version introduces functionality and settings we have all been waiting a very long time. No wonder people try out the Beta! Once in, it's very cumbersome and time consuming to migrate back + whoever updates the blog keeps indicating that go live is just around the corner. .

I too work in software development and although it's correct that Betas are sometimes set to expire, the frequency used here IS over the top and getting annoying and silly. Most people struggle to fit writing into their lives as it is. Who wants to spend 10 minutes of their precious writing time navigating to this site, downloading and installing, once a month and sometimes even more frequently?

The problem is that this has been going on for so long now. Nobody expects to be Beta testing for over a year! The statements over a year back indicated that the new version was close to go-live. And here we still are. I've lost track of how long this beta testing has been going on now, The business stakeholders and customers in my role would certainly not let me get away with any of this, in my role.

Please set expiration date of upcoming Betas so that we can skip 1-2 updates and do it quarterly, or at some more reasonable frequency. This idea would certainly not be hard or time consuming to implement, The Beta would still expire eventually. It's a compromise and it would show that you respect the time of us users - most of whom are no doubt paying customers of the previous version + planning to buy the next version.As you can see, some of us are beginning to feel. messed around.

Hopefully since the thread was allowed to begin with, some frank comments can be allowed. As a paying customer and a long running Beta tester, I think my input should be considered and that my suggestion is a reasonable compromise.

Am
Amcmo

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:01 am Post

Please set expiration date of upcoming Betas so that we can skip 1-2 updates and do it quarterly, or at some more reasonable frequency


1. L&L are up front about the beta and the process. Regardless of any claimed failings in V1.9 if anyone joins the beta they do so on L&L’s terms.
2. Try contacting the MS or Apple forums on a beta and the first question you will be asked is ‘are you on the latest version’. If your answer is no you will be told to update and check the issue again if you want any assistance.
3. Their normal support channels do not provide beta support. That is solely through dedicated beta sites.
4. Their beta releases can vary from days to weeks. While some if their betas don’t have short expiries, the above comment remains. Want help, don’t text/email until you’ve installed the latest and checked if the issue remains.
5. I work 10-12 hour days, sometimes 6 days a week, write up to four hours, spend time with my wife (and dog), lurk here, facebook etc, and have never had difficulty finding a moment to update.
6. Guess I’m superhuman (or a smart arse) not to find the few minutes to update impinges on my precious time.

With the full release hoped for in the next month I guess the quarterly request is moot.

Update: Beta 36 out so get the diary out and try to find a few free minutes to update.

Ki
Kinsey
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Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:23 am Post

Amcmo wrote: ...
Dumb in the extreme.


I come to this forum regularly for three main reasons: 1) Support queries and for Ioa's frequent deep dives into different ways of using Scrivener, which are incredibly informative; 2) to check the status of Win Scriv as I am now on a Windows machine daily; and 3) to try to give back some of my (admittedly limited) knowledge of Scrivener to the community.

Lately when I click into threads to see if I can offer advice, I find one or more of a small band of users who are violating the main forum rule by simply being rude to other users, especially new ones (see above quote). It's a real pity that this behaviour has come to represent the forum's content.

Am
Amcmo

Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:09 am Post

Would you rather I said ‘a bad idea’, ‘a really bad idea’, ‘an extremely bad idea’, Risks data loss’, ‘breaches best practice,’..........?

Nah, dumb works for me.

Point, I said the practice was dumb, not any person.....

Tw
Twolane
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Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:18 am Post

My response to the poster - post #2 of this thread:
Umm, have you tried F12 / General / Startup / Automatically check for updates? It presumes that you close the program every once in a while, of course.


BY ALIAA » MON JAN 27, 2020 1:37 PM
Wow, there are some really mean responses here.


Yeah, I guess, if you're one of those speshul super-sensitive snowflakes. Perhaps I should have included a trigger warning or some such.

Ki
Kinsey
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Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:35 am Post

Amcmo wrote:Would you rather I said ‘a bad idea’, ‘a really bad idea’, ‘an extremely bad idea’, Risks data loss’, ‘breaches best practice,’..........?


Well, any one of the above seem more polite!

Twolane wrote:Yeah, I guess, if you're one of those speshul super-sensitive snowflakes. Perhaps I should have included a trigger warning or some such.


Thank you, both, for reinforcing my point about a small subset of users and their impact on the forum's atmosphere.

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jje
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Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:06 pm Post

I started using the beta (many versions ago), because I was getting fed-up with the old-fashioned look of 1.9. The beta of version 3.0 looked a lot better (cleaner interface, etc.), but I accepted that it was unfinished software and there would be bugs, etc.

I backed everything up and for a while, kept the 1.9 and 3.0 versions of my book in sync but cutting and pasting new text into the old version. I soon decided that the beta was stable enough not to need that extra work, but again my choice (and L&L very clearly and repeatedly advised against).

I am very happy about the regular updates and the rapid flow of fixes. While 1.9 is starting to look really quaint, and I can understand peoples' desire to get the new version, a beta is a beta -- you don't have to join, you're not asked to pay. As several people have explained (perfectly politely, imho), there are good reasons to stop people using out-of-date betas and L&L have always made it clear that each beta will expire (and when).

So, personally (I have no connection whatever with L&L, btw), I don't think it's reasonable for people to complain about being forced to update their beta software regularly.