Expirations on Beta versions

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Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:49 pm Post

Lee.Hauser wrote:
cigoLogic wrote:
Astaff wrote:Charging more would do nothing to speed up development, and often the case, neither does throwing more developers at a problem.

Obviously not true. If it was true, then Microsoft would have only one developer employed.

Someone doesn't know much about either (a) software development or (b) computer history. IBM proved decades ago that throwing bodies at development projects (the IBM 360 system, to be precise) is no way to speed up development. Putting together a team is one thing...it's easy for a focused team to be productive. To simply add people to speed things up doesn't work.

Someone doesn't know that a single anecdote doesn't equate a proof of a position, replied the former Project Owner. However, it is true that more coders will do little good if the team is poorly organized. Still, a larger budget would be an advantage, not only to hire more people, but also to hire better people. Saying the opposite is nonsense.


Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:19 pm Post

cigoLogic wrote:Someone doesn't know that a single anecdote doesn't equate a proof of a position, replied the former Project Owner. However, it is true that more coders will do little good if the team is poorly organized. Still, a larger budget would be an advantage, not only to hire more people, but also to hire better people. Saying the opposite is nonsense.

There have been many more examples other than the IBM one.

Your comment ‘better people’ is an insult to the current L&L team.

I don’t know if you are aware of the history of iOS Scrivener. L&L hired expert professional coders who could not come to grips with the specialized nature of Scrivener and turned out to be a waste of money. It fell to Keith who knows Scrivener inside out to learn iOS coding and do it himself. I might add he came up with an app so tightly coded it is smaller than many with less functionality (IMHO)

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Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:16 pm Post

I find the attitudes of some of the writers on this site to be both fascinating and flabbergasting. I would assume that as purveyors of the written word, we'd all have a better appreciation and understanding of digital products, but maybe not.

Perhaps because I'm a professional author and have also been a professional programmer, it's easier for me to empathize with both sides, but let me try and defuse some of this programming criticism by putting it into writing terms:

Imagine you're writing the next War and Peace, the penultimate novel of your life. It's so ambitious, that you decide to share early drafts with your fans, so that you can get feedback to help you reach the novel's full potential. You're a small writer, and depend on your royalties to feed your family, so the long writing period puts a lot of stress on your family. But your fans come to the rescue. They're willing to give you feedback, in exchange for influencing your story and the opportunity to read in advance of the "ordinary reader."

So you send the early drafts out, at no charge, in hopes of quality feedback, but instead, you get a ton of complaints about all your grammatical and spelling errors. Half the respondents are not even commenting on the "meat" of the story, just your silly typos. "But, it's a rough draft!" you insist. "No sense correcting all the grammar until the main plot is complete."

Still, your fans bitch and moan about the typos. You spend tons of time answering these complaints, rather than writing or correcting the plot. But now, your fans want special treatment over and above the chance to read your work early, even though you didn't charge them for the privilege. Instead of appreciating this advance access, they start questioning your writing ability, the sloppiness of your prose. They get angry because you wasted their reading time with a less than perfect novel. They start questioning your abilities as a writer. They complain because you can't email them updates as quickly as they would like.

Stressed with the deadline of your novel, you grow frustrated and bitter. After all, didn't you offer the advance manuscript as a favor and privilege? At no cost? If your fans didn't like it, they could always stiff you for the final novel price and go somewhere else. But they wouldn't do that, you tell yourself. After all, you made yourself vulnerable and accessible by trusting them in the first place.

But over time, your confidence is shattered, your trust in your fans violated, and you start to ask yourself the question, "why did I even offer the rough draft to my fans? They don't even seem to understand the concept of 'rough draft.'" Then, finally, you release your life's work, after wasting hundreds of hours responding to fans with ridiculous and petty requests, only to find out that they have moved on to another writer, who churns out cheap dime-store novels, at a rate of 3-4 per year.

Despondent, you wonder why you went to all that trouble in the first place. You step outside, take a deep breath of cold night air, sigh, and pull the trigger . . . .

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Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:46 am Post

This was a great metaphor right up until the end. Please do not trivialize the pain of suicide just to make a debate point -- you don't know how many people out here it has touched.
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes


Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:25 am Post


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Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:40 pm Post

Could you maybe dial it down a bit? That was jarring to say the least, and hardly necessary to support your point. I appreciate your attempt to engender empathy toward the developers, but also have a care for those of us who may be a bit sensitive to death imagery on a technical support forum for software.
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AKA: R Dale Guthrie, Robert, Mr. Obscure, and "Oh, it's you again".

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Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:42 pm Post

First of all, the links to the beta versions have already expired as of Sept 30. So they are useless. And I'm not using the beta because I want to experiment with it.

I MUST use the beta because the MAC versions are incompatible with older versions of the Windows versions.

I am collaborating with a Mac user on a writing project. With her upgrade I can no longer open files. The beta version was an easy way for her to continue using the newest Mac version while still being able to share our work.

So please, do not chastise me, please point me to an updated beta with an expiration date that's not in the past tense.

Thanks for your continued hard work on an excellent product.

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Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:52 pm Post

If your Mac user is using Scrivener 3, they can export the project in v2 format, which is compatible with Scrivener for Windows 1.9. It's one extra step for them,but it keeps things working between the released versions of Scrivener.

Having said that, this thread always contains the link to the most current version of the beta:

Pinned beta thread

The download links are near the top of the top-most post in the thread and contain the version number *and* 32/64-bitness.
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

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Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:01 pm Post

I can be a big a-hole at times, so.... #NoSympathy

This is a BETA, it's labeled a BETA, the purpose is specifically for users who wish to, to use a buggy product and provide feedback on the bugs so the developers can more quickly rectify them.

It is NOT for production use, if you are using it that way, you are 100% in the wrong, so again #NoSympathy,

Stick to the release version if you aren't willing to risk the loss of work, time, loved ones, space monkeys, whatever - it's a BETA version, and honestly, whining about an expiration date on a public BETA (aka the norm for decades across all software) makes me wonder if you've even purchased a license at all.

Also, seriously, Click Community, Click Forums, Click Beta Testing (Windows), look at the big stickied post with the latest release of the BETA, and click it - walah! The newest BETA.

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Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:15 pm Post

Bridger wrote:Yesterday I tried to use my Scrivener, 3.0 beta and guess what, it would not open. My version stopped working on Sep 30, and on Oct 1 it was dead.

How could you miss this? Each time you open the Beta it gives you the expiration date? You have to acknowledge it each and every time to use the software?

Now I was forced to go to the website, try to find the download button for beta, which would not tell me if it was version 3 or 1.9.

Um... 1.9 is not a Beta. But it 'does' have a 30 trial period when you download it and then open it each time with a countdown of how long is left. Of course if you purchased it you should have received a license key to input in your e-mail. You 'have' to click on that as well telling you how long is left before it opens.

Then I had to hunt through the forums, found the download message, could not remember if the one I had installed was 32 or 64 bit. Didn't want to install the wrong one and end up with two copies cluttering my HD.

Sorry no sympathy there. Doesn't matter which one you download. All files open with either one.

By this time I had forgotten what I wanted to add to my novel.

Nobody ever said to use it for Critical Work. It's beta. It has flaws, its not meant for critical work. We are 'testing' it. Some that are doing so know that it can fail and make appropriate backups. It's even stated when you 'read' the notes.

Finally I hunted in my win 10 and found where I could manually change the date for the system, then my existing Scrivener opened and I could update from there. All in all a total waste of time.

Welcome to the forums, obviously you've never bothered to be here. Read what's going on or .... whatever.

Why are these deadlines so heavily enforced? Do you really want to make your users get all frustrated? I am a paid user, I paid for this new version. Either limit the betas to only paid users, or make it available to everyone and only cut off the use once you have the final product,

Really? Where did you pay for the Beta? None of us have. Now you paid for the public released version. Hence why there's a 'forced' cutoff date so as to 'not' have input from 'older' version that people 'wouldn't' update but complain about possibly fixed bugs. Hence the name Beta and Beta Testers. Again welcome to the forum, there's lots and lots of info here you might want to read. If you can spare the time.

Seriously if I have to go through this BS again , I am out of Scrivener for good.

Know what a door is? Or do you need help? By the way again, you 'didn't' purchase a copy of the Beta.

This is just such a mickey mousey system, if you want to use your users as beta testers, at least in return make things a bit easier for them. I would be willing to pay another $100 for the software,if it would just get finished and work properly with all the features that the Mac version has. And before all you holier than thou flamers start on me, think about this. If you were a carpenter , you would go into Home Depot and buy the best tools you could, because you use them every day. That adds up to hundreds if not thousands of dollars, but it its what you need to make a living. Same with Scrivener, if you are using it to make a living, a $100 bucks is not unreasonable for a good, production ready, dependable piece of software, is it?

Can't answer that for fear of being sued by Disney for infringement rights over their character. You of course said you paid for a copy. You have 1.9.14 right? Use it. It should be in your carpentry box where you left it. If it asks you for your License Key check your e-mail that you provided when you purchased it, else guess what...
:arrow: I'm not just a tester,.. I'm a user :!:

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Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:35 pm Post

@Bridger Ignore the Scrivener fanboys who feel the need to get nasty and pile on for a week after the original post anytime anyone makes the slightest criticism of Scrivener or the way L&L runs its business.
I think you've probably gotten the point that you downloaded the wrong version if you meant to use the paid version. I have the beta installed but I am still using 1.9 myself for my work because I don't want to deal with the hassles or potential problems of beta. Good luck.


Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:21 am Post

@Liz, it’s not a matter of fanboys (love how quickly people descend to throwing that around when they get called out)

It most definitely a case of pointing out (mostly respectfully) that the issues were of the OP’s own making, definitely not as claimed any failing on the part of L&L and that threatening to go elsewhere is self defeating.

There are a number of very helpful posts in the list.

I guess more than a few people do get a little testy when new posters, in their very first post blast L&L for ‘issues’ that are of their own making, demand changes, insist L&L don’t know what they are doing, (get more developers, not enough, current ones are incompetent, demand consequences). Guess we should learn to just shrug our shoulders and think ‘another one’.

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Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:02 pm Post

Fanboy = Adult who reads release notes, understands what free beta means, and is an adult.

No project is perfect. Everyone is smarter in critical hindsight. Complaining about reality doesn't fix it.
But complaining because you can't do a simple thing like download the software twice from the same location is.... ya that.

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Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:42 pm Post

:arrow: I'm not just a tester,.. I'm a user :!: