[NB] Overall Impression: I Would Not Upgrade

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TromboneAl
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Wed May 02, 2018 8:38 pm Post

My general impression from playing with the beta is that I would not upgrade to this new version.

I find the general look and feel much less appealing. Compare these:

Old.jpg
Old.jpg (286.35 KiB) Viewed 5666 times


New.jpg
New.jpg (197.64 KiB) Viewed 5666 times


The interface continues to be quirky and non-standard.
Al Macy
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kewms
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Thu May 03, 2018 12:43 am Post

Both the Corkboard background and whether Binder labels tint the whole title or not are configurable options.

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devinganger
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Thu May 03, 2018 7:14 am Post

TromboneAl wrote:The interface continues to be quirky and non-standard.


Well, it's not trying to be a native Windows program, so the design language is quirky to Windows users.

It's also perhaps a bit early to be making determinations based on UI when the program is still in beta. A lot of what you find quirky may be able to be softened up or eliminated once the major tasks of getting functionality in place are done.
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ae
aeternali
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Fri May 04, 2018 7:36 am Post

devinganger wrote:
TromboneAl wrote:The interface continues to be quirky and non-standard.


Well, it's not trying to be a native Windows program, so the design language is quirky to Windows users.

It's also perhaps a bit early to be making determinations based on UI when the program is still in beta. A lot of what you find quirky may be able to be softened up or eliminated once the major tasks of getting functionality in place are done.


I am with you on this one. Honestly, the current version is a bit quirky and non-standard too but I am ok with that. What I am looking for in this new version is stability improvements and something closer to the Mac version.

As you correctly point out, it's too early in the process to fully judge.

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KB
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Fri May 04, 2018 8:02 pm Post

TromboneAl wrote:My general impression from playing with the beta is that I would not upgrade to this new version.

I find the general look and feel much less appealing. Compare these:

Old.jpg

New.jpg

The interface continues to be quirky and non-standard.


Yep, the new version looks ten times better, and we put a lot of time into it. :) But you don't have to upgrade if you don't want to - you can stay on version 1.
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."

Sc
ScrivTrex
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Sat May 05, 2018 12:41 am Post

TromboneAl wrote:My general impression from playing with the beta is that I would not upgrade to this new version.

I find the general look and feel much less appealing. Compare these:

Old.jpg

New.jpg

The interface continues to be quirky and non-standard.


On the contrary, I love the new UI with Scrivener 3 for Windows and it looks like it's much more modern! Don't focus on the UI right now. Acknowledge that you will at least have the same great features/functionalities as Scrivener 3 does for the Mac. Anyways, I'm sure you will be able to customize the UI to your personal tastes. Furthermore, I find that scriv 3 for win is far more faster than scriv 1 for windows. Once scriv 3 for win is released, I assure you that you will love it for its great functionalities and you'll get over your personal dislikes about its UI design. Personally, I can't wait until Scrivener 3 for Windows is released this year! :D

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MimeticMouton
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Sat May 05, 2018 1:10 am Post

As others have said, the UI and available options are still in development, although the goal is not to make Scrivener look identical to the old version but to give it a modern makeover (while still being recognisable) in addition to the enhancements, new features, fixes, and under-the-hood improvements. If your initial reaction is aversion to change, give it a little time--it will probably grow on you. :) But for the experiment, I was able to get a pretty close look to what you have in your 1.9.7 shot just using the options currently available in Beta 4;

MatchToOld.jpg
MatchToOld.jpg (170.56 KiB) Viewed 5375 times


Take a look at File > Options > Appearance > Corkboard to add shadow and adjust the label tint and change the background; also in appearance options under General you can change your notes background, as in 1.9.7; and View > Use Label Color In > Show as Background Color in Binder will give you the full colour stripe in the binder as in 1.9.7.
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Lori
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Mon May 07, 2018 5:18 pm Post

Please show windows users that you really do care about them and are actually working to make the two versions contain the same features and appear the same, without some outdated "retro-modern" interface and visuals.

We certainly have been patient. You promised you were working on our missing features, They would be patches added. Just be patient. So we patiently waited. We waited and waited.

We sat there watching you develop the OS version. No timeline for our missing features to be coming out, but still promises that they would. We waited patiently.

We waited while you gave more upgrades for the Mac version. We still waited because you promised us those features. So we waited. Patiently I might add.

We then waited while we saw you announce you are putting out another Mac version with even more features than before. We looked at our calendars and waited. Certainly, our patches to upgrade us are coming soon, it's been years. So we waited, patiently.

Then we were told we would finally get an upgrade. We got excited! Finally! The upgrades we were promised so very long ago. But oh! we will have to pay for them now. Well, that's not playing nicely since we were promised we would be getting them as patches. Well, we waited for so long, I guess it's better than never getting what was promised. So, we waited. Patiently even longer.

Well, the Mac version was done 6 months ago. So we wait. We were told our version will be released sometime in 2018, but still, 5 mths in and still no date was given. The program is still very rough and looks like something developed in the early 90's. We wait, hoping that the end product will not look like that. Just the corkboard cards no longer look like index cards, but simple squares/rectangles. Modern? I guess if one is talking about Ultra-Modern where everything is downgraded from having any style at all and is simply squares and featureless. No decor, simplicity at it's finest. However, it's more a nod to retro early 1990's. But still, we wait, patiently.

Hoping to finally get what was promised so very long ago. Hoping to finally have the same features as the current Mac version. Keeping our fingers crossed in hopes that it won't look and feel like we are the hated neglected child. So we wait. Patiently.

My question is... will the Win3 version FINALLY catch up and have ALL the features of the Mac3 version this time?

Or will it be released with the now "Look we now have a new look! It's called retro! Miss the old 1990's look of programs? Well don't fret, we are bringing it back just for our ever patient and promise believing Windows users". "Don't worry Windows users we are finally going to sprinkle in a few features we promised over the past years and call it v3". "Oh please be happy with it, you finally got some scraps thrown your way too. I just hope you never really ever thought we would make it even close to our Mac baby. Want the program to be equal? Then get yourself out to a Mac store and spend thousands to get a computer you will never need/use for anything but this program." *whispers to staff: we really should be getting kick-backs from Apple for sending them more business.*

bc
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Tue May 08, 2018 1:12 am Post

These entries are of great value to me. I was won by the promise of a completely professional authoring environment in Scrivener. I'm a Windows user of many years with a substantial investment in Win machinery. I purchased the 1.9 version, taking at face value the promise that the full-function Win version would be along in 2018.

I'm a veteran of many S/W development projects, and am used to living in the environment of right-to-left scheduling of development milestones. I've not often seen professional work done with a by-and-by commitment to finish a project. Commitments are published, and are either met or, if missed, accompanied by statements on make-ups, so as to give people adequate planning information for their own work. I've asked for such information here and been rebuffed.

I'm gleaning enough insight from the posts here, to conclude that it is the wiser course for me to take a pass on Scrivener, and to find another authoring environment. My thanks to those of you who posted here.

Ri
Rithe
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Tue May 08, 2018 2:52 am Post

UI issues and/or preferences aside, there are some points being missed. Unfortunately, I don't have links for everything, so you will have to take some of it with a grain of salt.

Skipping Windows V2 - yes, version 2 is being skipped to jump to version 3. This is to bring Mac V3 and Windows V3 to feature parity. It doesn't make sense to update Windows to version 2, when version 3 has been in development along side. Bring them both to 3 instead of having Windows at 2, and Mac at 3.

Missing Features - Yes, we Windows users didn't get everything from Mac V2. But, V1.9 series had way more features than the Mac V1 series. It never hit feature parity, but it got somewhat close.

Mac vs Windows versions - Remember, the Mac version has been in development for, 15 years (? can't find the correct number) while the Windows has been in development for the last 6. That is way more time to get things implemented into the Mac version. The code can't just be taken from the Mac version and transferred into Windows. It doesn't work that way. Everything had to be developed from scratch.

All that being said. Again, V3 will bring feature parity. All the major features will be the same. There are some that the Mac version has because it is taking advantage of features in MacOS. But everything I have read says that it will work the same.

When? We don't know, and L&L aren't going to give an exact number because they aren't going to make a promise they can't keep. We can guess that it will be this year, sometime.

Yes, the current BETA isn't up to parity. But, it is beta. Things are being implemented and tweaked. L&L is working hard to get the Windows version up to the Mac version. Be patient. Don't just discount Scrivener for Windows because it's not the same as Mac. That time is coming. We Windows users are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel :)

Ji
JimRac
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Tue May 08, 2018 4:39 am Post

Dear L&L Windows developers,

Thank you for your continued efforts in bringing Windows Scrivener into parity with the Mac version.

We can see the fruit of those efforts with each new beta release.

Speaking for myself, I’d rather you get v3 right then get it rushed.

Keep up the good work.

Jim
I’m just a customer.

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kewms
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Tue May 08, 2018 6:32 am Post

Rithe wrote:Mac vs Windows versions - Remember, the Mac version has been in development for, 15 years (? can't find the correct number) while the Windows has been in development for the last 6. That is way more time to get things implemented into the Mac version. The code can't just be taken from the Mac version and transferred into Windows. It doesn't work that way. Everything had to be developed from scratch.


Not only that, but Mac OS was chosen as the original platform precisely because it included a significant library of relevant tools: a PDF viewer, a text editor, a web browser, all implemented and maintained across versions by Apple. While third-party tools for the Windows platform certainly exist, integrating them is much more challenging given the greater fragmentation of the Windows world.

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pigfender
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Tue May 08, 2018 7:32 am Post

TromboneAl wrote:I find the general look and feel much less appealing. Compare these:

Old.jpg

New.jpg

Our best wishes to Kaysa for a speedy recovery.

PS - I like the look of the new UI - I think it works very nicely. Although I’d probably pick a different orange for the index cards, personally!
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bc
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Tue May 08, 2018 5:56 pm Post

The further commentary since my post of yesterday simply confirms my decision to move past Scrivener.

If L&L are in the software business, then by definition, they are in a business. A drastically corrosive practice a business can engage in is to leave their clients in ongoing uncertainty on how and when to invest in the products the business offers..

People making business decisions expect either firm targets, or clearly stated estimates--accompanied by ongoing updates. I've seen no evidence to date that established the major targets for the successive betas. Please correct me if I'm in error. If I'm correct, that is unacceptable among S/W professionals.

The inderminate assertion that Scrivener 3 for Win will be released sometime in 2018 is not business information; it is a hedge offered by timid management.

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Tue May 08, 2018 6:22 pm Post

bcasan@gmail.com wrote:The further commentary since my post of yesterday simply confirms my decision to move past Scrivener.

If L&L are in the software business, then by definition, they are in a business. A drastically corrosive practice a business can engage in is to leave their clients in ongoing uncertainty on how and when to invest in the products the business offers..

People making business decisions expect either firm targets, or clearly stated estimates--accompanied by ongoing updates. I've seen no evidence to date that established the major targets for the successive betas. Please correct me if I'm in error. If I'm correct, that is unacceptable among S/W professionals.

The inderminate assertion that Scrivener 3 for Win will be released sometime in 2018 is not business information; it is a hedge offered by timid management.


Hey there.

I'd agree with you that a certain amount of clarity around project planning, milestone targets and delivery expectations would be both common and necessary if having a conversation with corporate investors on a non-tech development programme. However, in the tech space (and software especially), that expectation of programmatic certainty is both old fashioned and unwarranted. What you've described is known as 'waterfall' project development. Software, in contrast, tends to be be developed in a more 'agile' environment that recognises the inherent uncertainty around the time and resources needed to implement change, and the necessity of both flexibility and reactive planning to deliver robust products.

And that approach is used even when engaging with senior business stakeholders and investors. When talking to customers, leaving an uncertainty on "when to buy" is often a very positive move. It prevents people from holding back on buying for the next-big thing (Apple have mastered this approach), and smooths out purchases more evenly.

Far from being 'timid', from my outside observations, LL's management strike me as bold; forging forward with the confidence that comes from a high degree of trust in their overarching vision for their products. I'd also point out three further aspects of their customer engagement strategy that warrant praise:
1) They are being consistent with their long-standing approach of: buy the software based on what it does today, not what you hope will be added in the future. For the moment that means you should only buy WinScriv if you like v1 (otherwise, just use the free betas)
2) They have stated that you don't need to hold off on buying Scriv1 -- if you buy it now you get a Scriv3 licence when it's released (whenever that is)
3) By not committing to a set release date, they are sticking to their business approach of not just rushing to release whatever they can get done by a certain point and then fix it, they show they remain committed to releasing software when it's ready... which in LL world, has been proven (in my book, anyway) to mean when it's great.

NOW, does anyone have an update on Kaysa's condition? Poor thing.
"Some dice only have sixes." nom, 19 Oct 2013
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