Scrivener 3 for Windows but when?

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Sparrowhawk
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Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:19 pm Post

AnimusAstralis wrote:
kewms wrote:
Sanguinius wrote:Hiring more people doesn't automatically equal a faster development time.


Indeed. The "troubled history" of iOS Scrivener development included multiple attempts to hire people that didn't work out as hoped.

Katherine


I guess it's a management problem then. Please, don't get me wrong. Do I love Scrivener? Yes, it's essential for my everyday work, as well as two other particular pieces of software. Do I want Scrivener's development to be more vibrant? Yes, certainly. Those two pieces of software got two or three new major releases since 2011, they got lots of new features and at this background Scrivener looks stagnant. I know I shouldn't compare completely different applications, yet those are neither less complex than Scrivener, nor being developed by some technological giant. And their price is almost the same.


Unless you are a developer, you really have no business comparing different pieces of software. Your comparison to their complexity is based on a user's experience, not a devloper's. Keith before ever developing the original Scrivener chose Mac because of all the libraries he would not have to build - it wasn't just because Apple was "cool" compared to Windows. When the demand for a Windows version reached a high enough level, he hired a Windows team, but obviously they wanted the same program as what was available on the Mac, but that didn't change that those libraries still did not exist. WIn Scriv development has to find and create far more than Mac, and the Mac version will always lead with the Windows version trying to replicate it without the benefit of the same tools, many of which for Windows must be pulled from other sources or developed completely from scratch.

Complexity of UX and complexity of development are far from the same thing. Your comparison based on price is also irrelevant as you do not know how many units are being sold by either one, or their profit margins. You have no clue how much capital L&L has to play with vs those you are comparing it to (especially since L&L is a private company).

As both a developer and an entrepreneur, let me assure you that L&L takes it work very seriously and I personally am amazed that they have 3 working versions (Mac, Win, iOS), plus another program (Scapple) most of which, as you have pointed out, have been out less than 9 years. I couldn't imagine pulling that off. This is especially amazing considering Keith, who designed the original and founded the company, wasn't a programmer when he started making it.

I too wish the Window's version was further along, but my frustration with its pace as a user is counter-balanced by my amazement at their pace as a developer and entrepreneur.
You will find more evidence of the ridiculousness of humanity in the bathroom mirror than any other place in the world.

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lunk
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Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:38 pm Post

Getting a specific piece of software developed for the OS of your choice isn’t exactly guaranteed by the United Nations Human’s Rights... :roll:
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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AnnaRos
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:02 pm Post

AnimusAstralis wrote:
kewms wrote:
Sanguinius wrote:Hiring more people doesn't automatically equal a faster development time.


Indeed. The "troubled history" of iOS Scrivener development included multiple attempts to hire people that didn't work out as hoped.

Katherine


I guess it's a management problem then. Please, don't get me wrong. Do I love Scrivener? Yes, it's essential for my everyday work, as well as two other particular pieces of software. Do I want Scrivener's development to be more vibrant? Yes, certainly. Those two pieces of software got two or three new major releases since 2011, they got lots of new features and at this background Scrivener looks stagnant. I know I shouldn't compare completely different applications, yet those are neither less complex than Scrivener, nor being developed by some technological giant. And their price is almost the same.


So how many novels have you finished in the past year compared to other writers? And does your bookprice reflect the amount of effort for writing them?
Just kidding of course, but comparing innovation this way is a bit silly. Let's just wait and see what L&L comes up with.
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kewms
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:13 pm Post

AnimusAstralis wrote:
I guess it's a management problem then.


*shrug* Managing large software projects is hard. The original observation that adding people to a project doesn't necessarily speed development came from Frederick Brooks, who among other things managed the development of OS/360 for IBM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month If there's a "management problem" here, it's one universal to the industry.

Which is why L&L has always encouraged people to buy Scrivener (or not) based on what it does now, not what they hope it will do in the future.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

An
AnimusAstralis
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:04 pm Post

Ok, I get it. Then it's an interesting research question! :roll: I'm kidding. I'm sure there are a lot of empirical evidence on correlation between speed in software engineering speed and some other variables. Quick search reveals that speed suffers severely from cross-site development practices (according to several papers with 500+ citations). Interesting...

I understand perfectly that I'm not entitled to demand anything, And in fact, I don't. Can't hide my frustration though. Also I'm genuinely curious why in some cases software development is considerably slower than in others. My personal observations suggest that development cycles are slowly but steadily converging across the industry, but I'm most probably wrong.

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lunk
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:28 pm Post

AnimusAstralis wrote:Also I'm genuinely curious why in some cases software development is considerably slower than in others.

Oh, that’s simply an effect of it in some cases being faster. :lol:
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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AnnaRos
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:41 pm Post

AnimusAstralis wrote:Ok, I get it. Then it's an interesting research question! :roll: I'm kidding. I'm sure there are a lot of empirical evidence on correlation between speed in software engineering speed and some other variables. Quick search reveals that speed suffers severely from cross-site development practices (according to several papers with 500+ citations). Interesting...

I understand perfectly that I'm not entitled to demand anything, And in fact, I don't. Can't hide my frustration though. Also I'm genuinely curious why in some cases software development is considerably slower than in others. My personal observations suggest that development cycles are slowly but steadily converging across the industry, but I'm most probably wrong.


Didn't you read an earlier answer that made perfectly clear why Windows development is much more work than development on MacOS? Just try to imagine to have to mimic MacOS behaviour without the support of (extensive) platform dependent libraries used for the MacOS version. There's no magic here. The MacOS version is leading and the Windows version follows it for as much as possible. That takes a lot of extra coding and testing. L&L is not developing this as a cross platform solution but as two separate solutions of which the Windows version has to imitate part of the MacOS code base. This means for a part reverse engineering MacOS libraries to Windows executable code. It's amazing that they are actually capable of doing that.

So, just be patient and write a book.
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EM
EMPisek
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:42 pm Post

The problem is what is available to use vs what must be created/tested and implemented. Basically the underlying code that allowed the development of Scrivener for the Mac was readily available it seemed.

For Windows the api's may not have been available from the SDK and had to or has to be created from scratch. This in itself is not an easy task. To just say its a management problem is not necessarily true. Nor is it justifiable to say hire more programmers . Management is probably aware of the problem but to hire/train and then develop the necessary skills may take far longer than to just have a small team work on the problem.

Perfect example is games. The more complex the game the longer it took to develop and release. If only on one platform it is fundamentally easier than to have it designed for say the PS/4, Xbox and desktop. More people hired does not equate to a better game due to very different underlying technologies the biggest being the desktop and its various configurations. Time constrain, heavy turnovers and missed deadlines forced developers to be pinned down on a 'set' release date for being 'burned' when the game failed to deliver both date and expectations.

I would rather wait for a more stable upgrade and live with a few unforeseen quarks that will most likely be missed (for not everything can be foresee) than to have something rushed out before it was ready for prime time.

People keep comparing Scrivener used on the Mac to what is now on Windows. That's like comparing banna's and pears. They are both good but are not the same in both appearances and taste. A person will favor one over the other even tho both are quite good because one may have better capabilities either by design or available software.
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kewms
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Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:05 am Post

AnimusAstralis wrote:I understand perfectly that I'm not entitled to demand anything, And in fact, I don't. Can't hide my frustration though. Also I'm genuinely curious why in some cases software development is considerably slower than in others. My personal observations suggest that development cycles are slowly but steadily converging across the industry, but I'm most probably wrong.


Web services are logistically much easier to upgrade than software that resides on the user's computer: the vendor only has to upgrade across their own data centers, which are a much more clearly defined platform than all the variations of PC hardware and PC software environments that exist. Thus, web software suppliers often get a competitive advantage from releasing new features as quickly as possible, even if the changes from the previous version are quite small. Since PC software is harder to upgrade, PC software vendors tend to have a relatively small number of relatively major releases. Look at Microsoft itself, which only releases a major Windows version every three years or so, despite having essentially unlimited resources to dedicate to the problem.

(As a side note, the relative uniformity of Apple hardware makes developing for the platform significantly easier, even aside from the differences in toolkits discussed in this thread.)

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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SnakeDoc
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Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:41 pm Post

Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
...

teehee

rg
rgletter
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Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:50 pm Post

fwrunner2018 wrote:
rgletter wrote:This is just a guess since I'm not on the development team. I'm figuring the release will be between May-Aug of this year. Better idea after April beta release. There are many little bugs that need to be taken out and a few major features to be completed. Software development is complicated. :lol:

Judging by the number of bugs still being reported as of 2018-07-25, I seriously doubt that release will be anytime before Sept, but my gut is telling me that it won't be long before xmas.

That's all OK for me, as I don't even have a plot for my first novel yet. I am playing with this beta just to keep my thoughts organized, and trying to do the best I can as a beta tester...


I updated my projection based on this last update to late Fall (Oct/Nov). I do think there is one more beta (9) followed by a release. The current beta is very good, however there are small minor bugs running around.

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Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:23 pm Post

rgletter wrote: I do think there is one more beta (9) followed by a release. The current beta is very good, however there are small minor bugs running around.

Considering that they haven't finished implementing the compile features, I think that's overly optimistic. Once it's feature-complete, I wouldn't expect fewer than 3 beta releases as bugs in the compile process are revealed through real-world testing.
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Lori
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:52 am Post

Well, I am sure L&L will be happy when this is all done.

Looking forward to Scriv3Win. I haven't seen the beta yet, but hoping we will finally have the important groundbreaking features that were exclusive only to Mac users.

Considering that Mac computers only holds 9.75% of the market share in 2016 and not seeing much of an increase since then, and are so cost prohibitive that people typically aren't willing to switch over.

I would say finally upgrading the program will increase sales significantly as the Win version will hopefully no longer be the unloved child who is given only hand-me-downs and left to roam like a wild child on the streets (rarely considered for updates/upgrades), all while the favored child, the Mac version, is pampered, feed only the best food, groomed on a regular basis and taught everything there is to know (regular updates and upgrades)

Sure Mac computers look cool with their guts held nicely in the oversized monitors and simplistic design, but a computer isn't typically an interior design element. Yes, I would love for my desktop to look sleek and sexy, but hey if it can't do everything a Windows computer can do and have the wide availability of programs that only windows can provide, then I have to pass over the sleek and sexy for the boring box with lit up window to see inside computer. Maybe I will just spray paint the box a sleek white and stick a pretty sticker on the side... no wait... how about stick a unique wallpaper... hmmm.. all the possibilities there are for making a windows box look sleek and sexy too without costing a fortune and loss of capability in the process. Now, where is my box of crafting supplies...Scissors... check, glue... check...

rg
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:48 pm Post

rdale wrote:
rgletter wrote: I do think there is one more beta (9) followed by a release. The current beta is very good, however there are small minor bugs running around.

Considering that they haven't finished implementing the compile features, I think that's overly optimistic. Once it's feature-complete, I wouldn't expect fewer than 3 beta releases as bugs in the compile process are revealed through real-world testing.


What feature(s) don't work in Compile? What I've tested seems to work so far.

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devinganger
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Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:11 pm Post

rgletter wrote:
rdale wrote:
rgletter wrote: I do think there is one more beta (9) followed by a release. The current beta is very good, however there are small minor bugs running around.

Considering that they haven't finished implementing the compile features, I think that's overly optimistic. Once it's feature-complete, I wouldn't expect fewer than 3 beta releases as bugs in the compile process are revealed through real-world testing.


What feature(s) don't work in Compile? What I've tested seems to work so far.


Does nobody read release notes anymore? They don't specify which exact pieces aren't wired up yet, but they do specifically call it out: From http://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=242064#p242064 :

Known Issues
    We are still implementing features and ironing out bugs, so you should expect to find things that aren't working quite as intended. A few issues to be aware of in the current 2.9.0.8 beta:

    The editor zoom is applying separately to single text documents and Scrivenings mode, although the footer will remain displaying the last set zoom.
    Rearranging custom metadata fields in Project Settings when some are set to display as columns in the Outliner can affect which columns are shown.
    Page View is only partially implemented and not recommended for use. Documents that are loaded in Page View continue to load with a Page-View appearance in Wrap to Editor mode unless they are loaded in the editor when toggling off Page View. (To fix this for a document, toggle View > Text Editing > Page View back on and then off again while the document is open in the focussed editor.)
    A writing-direction flag appears on the cursor within any paragraph containing auto-corrected characters. (This is a bug in the Qt upgrade's increased bi-directional support for which we have not yet found a workaround.)
    Titles are not editable in the editor header while in Scrivenings mode. They can however be updated in the inspector, binder, or, if View > Text Editing > Show Titles in Scrivenings is enabled, directly in the editor and the change will be reflected in the header.
    "View page source" on imported webpages is not working with the current Qt version.
    Though we have the interface set up for the new compiler, it is not yet fully functional.
    Project templates have not yet been updated for 3.0, so are not taking advantage of new features and may have some outdated content.
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