Will iOS Scriv Work in iPad OS?

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smile
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:56 pm Post

There are clearly significant changes.

https://developer.apple.com/ios/whats-new/

PencilKit is a new framework that could clearly be applied to Scivener IOS, as well as CloudKit and Multiple UI Instances (and probably others in that list)

To pretend that the version of Scrivener on IPadOS is hampered in the same way as it probably was in IOS 12 seems a little disingenuous.

Are we saying that the new file manager shouldn't be added into the software for example?

And yes, it does seem reasonable to realise that an Ipad 12.9 inch is different from an iPhone, so it may need some features to account for that.

The IOS version hasn't been updated since Dec 2017, But in the intervening time the actual devices it is running on (especially the Ipad Pros) have become much more capable. Now that the system software is opening up and adding new functions, then it is normal to want the software that runs on it to keep up with what is possible.

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devinganger
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:31 pm Post

smile wrote:PencilKit is a new framework that could clearly be applied to Scivener IOS


A text app needs support for hand-drawn images???
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sidderke
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:37 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
smile wrote:PencilKit is a new framework that could clearly be applied to Scivener IOS


A text app needs support for hand-drawn images???


Maybe (again, this is not knowledge, just a guess) it also implies a new PDF viewer built in iOS which maybe makes it possible for Scrivener iOS to do highlights on a PDF. Very handy when you do research (and have the Apple Pencil), and already possible in the Mac version, but not in the iOS version. You can do it in a block of text, but not on a PDF inside Scrivener iOS. Not because it isn't possible at all on iOS, but because L&L would have to write their own PDF viewer inside the app because the one that Apple provides built-in for apps is barebones. Maybe PencilKit is part of a more full features built in PDF viewer?

Questions like that and more are why I opened up a thread a while ago, asking to see what would be all the possibilities iOS 13 brings to Scrivener users.

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Silverdragon
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:28 pm Post

The other problem KB faces is the bugaboo of backwards compatibility with earlier versions of iOS. As of now, iOS Scrivener is compatible back to iOS 9. The tightrope walk of taking advantage of new capabilities while not cutting off the older installed base---well, it's a conundrum. Apps that hold on to the older iOS but use new capabilities begin to bloat with conditional code and that brings increased risk of bugs.

Mind you, iOS Scrivener is now the opposite of bloated! I know of no other app simultaneously so small and so capable. So KB can likely walk the tightrope for quite a while. But it's a risk he will need to assess along with all the other questions of what capabilities of iOS / iPadOS 13 he can / is willing to take advantage of.
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sidderke
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:30 pm Post

Silverdragon wrote:Mind you, iOS Scrivener is now the opposite of bloated! I know of no other app simultaneously so small and so capable.


That's so true. I think it was 7.5MB when it was released or something. And one of the most powerful writing apps on iOS.

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derick
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:44 pm Post

The other problem KB faces is the bugaboo of backwards compatibility with earlier versions of iOS. As of now, iOS Scrivener is compatible back to iOS 9.


This is an important point. In my informal observations, Scrivener users are much more concerned than most with maintaining backward compatibility, often a long way back.

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Silverdragon
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:19 pm Post

devinganger wrote:A text app needs support for hand-drawn images???

Currently, I use Noteshelf for drawings and handwritten musings, particularly in the early stages of a project. It's not unimaginable that creating these with PencilKit and storing them in the Research folder might be within the design goal of having all one's research inside Scrivener. I'm not saying I want it or that KB will see it that way, but it's conceivable.
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popcornflix
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:37 pm Post

I have probably added more stuff to Scrivener based on suggestions from you than from any other user, certainly in the screenwriting department


I had no idea that this was the case. I am sincerely grateful. Truly. Thank you.

The problem is that you want me to do something that I have no plans of doing - of building a text engine primarily aimed at screenwriters. , but the trouble is that you want something entirely different from what Scrivener is, it seems.


First, I'd like to publicly and humbly apologize for causing you upset.
I'm very sorry. It was not my intent to vex you in any way.

Frankly, it was not my intent to engage you in any of this discussion. I was blowing off some steam with other users arguing over issues that frustrate us, with the reasonable expectation that you keep your own counsel and do whatever you want to do.

In the interest of clarity, I'll respond to your post. Again, I'm not trying to provoke or otherwise upset you, just clarify my position.

I appreciate excellence in tools. Scrivener, long before it had any screenwriting-specific features, was clearly a tool designed and built with excellence. It had the hallmarks of the "insanely great" product: it was simultaneously innovative and inevitable. It worked so well, it was bewildering that no-one had built it before.

This is exactly why I and other Scrivener users begged, pestered and hectored you about adding screenwriting features. We wanted to be able to use Scrivener's genius design and workflow to write screenplays.

When you announced that you were adding screenwriting, I (and I imagine the other screenwriters) were elated. It was going to revolutionize our writing careers.

Then we tried it. I was a little disappointing. Compared to other screenwriting software, (even the free ones), it made it more difficult to write. It made it more difficult to edit. Unlike the rest of Scrivener, screenplay processing wasn't excellent.

You also made it clear that it wasn't going to get any better. Your heart wasn't in it. Scrivener was your writing tool, and you don't write screenplays. It was an aspect of the product that you added to please the users, instead of pleasing yourself.

I don't want something entirely different from Scrivener. I want Scrivener to fulfill its promise, and live up to its own level of excellence.

I don't care if you build a custom text engine. I just want screenplay pages to work really well. If you came up with a way to use Apple's frameworks that solved the current problems, I would applaud your creative and innovative thinking.

My frustration comes from my love of Scrivener. It's an astounding and powerful writing tool. I'm reminded of this whenever I need to write something that isn't a screenplay. It's like photoshop for the written word, honestly. Game-changing.

I just wish the screenplay features were excellent, too.
.:popcornFlix:.

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popcornflix
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Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:11 pm Post

KB wrote: This is insulting.


Again, no insult intended, and apologies for doing so inadvertently.

KB wrote: Money wasn't the issue. The skill of the coders we could find was - even a professional iOS coding company.


I understand that you made your best efforts at the time to find the best coder for the job. That doesn't mean that L&L couldn't find a top-flight iOS coder if you sought one now. Availability changes, search tool changes, people's careers change.

I was just making the point that I value scrivenings and collections so much that I would pay more if that's what it took to fix those features in iOS.
.:popcornFlix:.

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scshrugged
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:01 am Post

Jaysen wrote:
KB wrote:Scrivener on the Mac is essentially Xcode for writers.
Wait... I thought someone decided that books and apps were not the same...

KB, as a lapsed +3+ I would like to chime in with a completely off topic comment. commence fanboydom....

I, as a nerd who can't get out of the corporate world, am still thrilled by your success as the author of scrivener. It is a novel that influences the writings of other authors. While you haven't written your work of fiction, and you may never actually finish this work of non-fiction, your steadfast dedication to the plot and consistent output is something at which many on this forum marvel. All whilst raising a family.

Huzzah! to you. My the future continue to shine bright for you and yours.

...and hear, hear to KB, AmberV, Kewms and the rest of the L&L team. The public, objective evidence is clear whether this small company deserves admiration. Thanks for the software and inspiration.
I'm a Scrivener user, not an L&L employee.

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popcornflix
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:28 am Post

KB wrote:There has been an argument that using Apple’s text system is a problem and that pro apps should build their own text system from scratch. My point was only that this is wrong.


I think you have misunderstood my argument.

I have been told by L&L repeatedly that Scrivener's screenplay formatting problems are due to limitations in the Apple text system, and therefore cannot be fixed. Your (and your team's) words, not mine.

In order to encourage L&L to find solutions, I have suggested building your own text engine as an adjunct. I pointed out that all of the screenwriting apps I am aware of wrote their own text engine. This was an effort to not give up, to find a way to fix Scrivener.

I believe wholeheartedly that you could solve the screenplay problems using Apple's text system. You're an accomplished and innovative developer. I don't think the limitation is in Apple's text system. I think the problem is motivation.

Screenwriting is not your passion. You have more enthusiasm and creativity for the parts of Scrivener that you use personally. Despite the problems in Scrivener's screenplay formatting, you seem to feel that it's good enough, and doesn't warrant improvement.

So I agree with you -- Apple's text system is not the problem.
.:popcornFlix:.

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Rayz
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:12 am Post

popcornflix wrote:
I think you have misunderstood my argument.

I have been told by L&L repeatedly that Scrivener's screenplay formatting problems are due to limitations in the Apple text system, and therefore cannot be fixed. Your (and your team's) words, not mine.


I got the same impression, which is why I thought it was important to be clear on what is a design choice and what is a problem with the framework.
As if I didn't talk enough: Dom on Writing

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lunk
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:38 am Post

popcornflix wrote:When you announced that you were adding screenwriting, I (and I imagine the other screenwriters) were elated. It was going to revolutionize our writing careers.

Then we tried it. I was a little disappointing.
- - -
You also made it clear that it wasn't going to get any better. Your heart wasn't in it.
- - -
I want Scrivener to fulfill its promise, and live up to its own level of excellence.

Promise??
Maybe it’s a language thing but to me your explanation isn’t making things better. Honestly, you are coming through as a spoiled child.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
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kewms
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:01 am Post

derick wrote:
The other problem KB faces is the bugaboo of backwards compatibility with earlier versions of iOS. As of now, iOS Scrivener is compatible back to iOS 9.


This is an important point. In my informal observations, Scrivener users are much more concerned than most with maintaining backward compatibility, often a long way back.


I can confirm this. On the Mac side, we just recently got a query from someone who wanted to use Scrivener with Mac OS 10.5. (Sorry, can't be done. We have no way to issue a license that will work that far back.) Lots of writers are using the least expensive machine they can manage, which often means the oldest.

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devinganger
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:08 am Post

sidderke wrote:
Silverdragon wrote:Mind you, iOS Scrivener is now the opposite of bloated! I know of no other app simultaneously so small and so capable.


That's so true. I think it was 7.5MB when it was released or something. And one of the most powerful writing apps on iOS.


And if a lot of custom code (for a text engine, for example) had to be written, this would certainly not be the case -- and that would be even more code that would have to be balanced across the various OS versions for bugs/conditional workarounds/etc.
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