When will Scrivener support iCloud (or the way around)?

Ga
Garymoore
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:30 pm
Platform: Mac

Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:48 pm Post

hi all
I've just become prt of the family and have an iMac and a MacBook .
So can i ask this please?
if i save a file on my MacBook, obviously it uploads to iCloud and will update the file on my iMac when i opened it later, like any other file does. Can you just open up and work away this way?
many thanks and I'm looking forward to getting to grips with scrivener.
Gary

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 1727
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272 (CN97au)
Contact:

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:26 am Post

Kinsey wrote:PS - Interesting to see some posters here speculating as to the future while simultaneously trying to shut down other threads with similarly speculative musings :?


I can't speak for anyone else, but I will note that if one is willing to do the search work, one can find numerous posts where KB has in the past provided specific detail about how MacOS and iOS differ even in basic technologies like the RTF text system (which is where we get the basic Scrivener capability for things like Scrivenings) and how iOS is currently lacking in its support, and how iOS (and now, I guess, iPadOS) would have to provide more feature parity in order for iOS Scrivener to become anything close to equivalent even in core functionality with PC Scrivener.

Until we have a hard, actual sign that Apple has fixed those deficiencies, KB would be crippling Scrivener to follow the suggested development path. Whether KB would decide it's worth doing that is his call, and until we have facts, all of the rest of the discussion is not productive.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

Ki
Kinsey
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:06 pm
Platform: Mac

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:33 am Post

Yes, I am aware of the inherent differences. You have entirely missed the point of my comment.

Ki
Kinsey
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:06 pm
Platform: Mac

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:37 am Post

Garymoore wrote:hi all
I've just become prt of the family and have an iMac and a MacBook .
So can i ask this please?
if i save a file on my MacBook, obviously it uploads to iCloud and will update the file on my iMac when i opened it later, like any other file does. Can you just open up and work away this way?
many thanks and I'm looking forward to getting to grips with scrivener.
Gary


Dropbox is recommended as the only reliable way to sync live projects between two different computers. Guidelines here: https://scrivener.tenderapp.com/help/kb ... g-with-ios

iCloud will work reliably, as far as I am aware, but only if the project is zipped first. Hope that helps.

Jo
JoRo
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 6:40 am
Platform: Mac

Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:41 pm Post

Kinsey wrote:When iPadOS allows me to recreate that environment, without sacrificing app functionality, then I'll happily jump on board.


Hello, Kinsey.

You have given voice to many thoughts that have swelled and swirled in my own mind.

I agree that Apple has made a huge step in terms of the Mac this year, with both the MacPro and the features crammed into Catalina.

It feels as though the new MacPro is directly targeting (in terms of computing power and budget) creatives who need their IT to do a lot of heavy lifting: filmmakers, photographers, musicians, app developers, etc.

For more consumer-focused apps, I suspect Apple knows that a souped-up version of iPadOS (running on iPads or ARM-powered laptops), will be sufficient to meet most needs.

From my (limited) experience, Scrivener falls into that consumer-focused category, where writers want an app that gives them more structure, navigation, and flexibility than Word, but they don’t in the main need the extended features offered by macOS and Scrivener 3...which is, I believe, already evidenced by users who in recent years have switched to Ulysses. If Scrivener for iPadOS could match Ulysses and go a fair way to match the core functionality of Scrivener 3 (which the new features added to iPadOS already bring us far closer to) then I think the future will probably rest with a single universal app that will be easier to maintain and support.

I got on at the wrong end of a busy train today and had to walk through eight coaches to get to my reserved seat. Lots of phones. Lots of tablets. Both mainly Apple devices from what I could see. Just two laptops. A few years ago, I would have certainly seen more laptops. I checked with my immediate family (parents and siblings and their households) to ask how many of them still have desktop computers: three years ago, the number would have been seventeen. Today, it is zero (we sold our last iMac last week to someone who wanted it for spares). Perhaps I live in a bubble, but even on this forum, there are people talking about switching to iPads as their main writing devices. The IT world is shifting, and it will, I think, shift further.

I will miss a full-powered macOS version of Scrivener (if that day actually dawns), but I will celebrate the fact that Keith will be more able to deliver regular updates by having his workload given a single point of focus.

Of course, this is all conjecture. Some people appear not to like hypotheticals, but I hope that those who do will be free to discuss their thoughts openly: for me, it is interesting to read about other people’s feelings and ideas...I learn, and I am ever hopeful of having my mind expanded and enriched.

In a nutshell, I think iPadOS is getting to the point where it can make Scrivener for iOS the default app for the majority (though of course not all) of Scrivener users. Might all be tosh.

With thanks and all respect.

Slàinte mhòr.

Jo

User avatar
xiamenese
Posts: 4080
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:32 am
Platform: Mac
Location: London or Exeter, UK.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:16 pm Post

Let me say, if this ever happens, I jump ship to Windows, perhaps to the Windows version running on Linux under Wine. I took part in the beta testing of the iOS app and bought it when it went commercial. I think I have opened it 3 times since then. For me, it's a great iOS app and Keith is to be congratulated on it … but it's not for me, and as my main use is collaborating on Chinese–English and English–Chinese translation with my colleagues in China, using the iOS version is out.

I only use a small percentage of the bells and whistles in Scrivener for Mac, but that's what meets my needs..

Mark
The Scrivenato sometimes known as Mr X.
iMac 27" (late 2015) 10.15.2, 24GB RAM, 512GB SSID
MBP17" (late 2011) 10.13.6, 16GB RAM, 2TB SSID
2017 iPad, iPadOS 13.3, 128GB, Apple Pencil
Scrivener, Scapple, Nisus Writer Pro, Bookends …

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 5440
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:03 am Post

Kinsey wrote:Dropbox is recommended as the only reliable way to sync live projects between two different computers. Guidelines here: https://scrivener.tenderapp.com/help/kb ... g-with-ios

iCloud will work reliably, as far as I am aware, but only if the project is zipped first. Hope that helps.


Just to be clear, Dropbox is the only supported tool for syncing with iOS devices. iCloud and other services are fine for syncing between Mac OS devices, provided that the precautions described in this article are taken:
https://scrivener.tenderapp.com/help/kb ... c-services

(Why the disparity? Because Macs have both real multitasking and real disk management tools, while iOS has neither.) (Which is one of many reasons to be skeptical about suggestions that iOS will ultimately replace Mac OS.)

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 5440
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:11 am Post

JoRo wrote:From my (limited) experience, Scrivener falls into that consumer-focused category, where writers want an app that gives them more structure, navigation, and flexibility than Word, but they don’t in the main need the extended features offered by macOS and Scrivener 3...which is, I believe, already evidenced by users who in recent years have switched to Ulysses.


For what it's worth, I see a good number of support queries from people who *thought* they didn't need the Mac Scrivener 3 features ... but then find themselves running into the limitations of iOS Scrivener.

It's also worth remembering that there's a lot more to writing, and particularly self-publishing, than simply putting words in a coherent order. On the front end, there's research, and on the back end there are many design and layout tasks. It will be a long time before *all* of these -- including the data flow between them -- can be handled by iOS apps as easily as with Mac OS.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Jo
JoRo
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 6:40 am
Platform: Mac

Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:15 am Post

Thanks, Katherine.

Yes, I think the current limitations of iOS impede Scrivener for iOS. It doesn’t suit my personal needs, but I know people who have switched to writing on their iPads and who are happy.

One of the biggest issues for me when using an iPad is the ergonomics of a touchscreen. If iPadOS and iPadOS Scrivener ported to a Mac can overcome that ergonomic issue, I would certainly be open to trying and testing such a souped-up version of Scrivener.

For me, the question isn’t whether I or anyone else wants a dedicated macOS version of Scrivener as we have now; it is whether the market for such an app could survive in an Apple world of universal apps, compiled from the same source code. Yes, some or many people might want macOS Scrivener, but if that number proves in time not to be large enough to sustain a separate development stream, then I assume it would make financial and technical sense for Keith to streamline his work and the company’s offerings. There are already more iOS devices than macOS devices, and the indications are that the disparity between the OSes will only get bigger in time. As developers already have to design and develop for iOS / iPadOS, isn’t it logical to use that same code to run an app on a laptop rather than run expensive and time-consuming development for a market that appears to be shrinking? And especially for a single developer?

I am not saying that I want any of the above to happen. I am saying what I think will happen for most consumer-focused apps and their developers, and that the writers I know who use Scrivener or who have switched to Ulysses are, in the main, consumers...even most of the people on the forum. And that for the majority of them a souped-up version of iPadOS running iPadOS Scrivener is likely to suit most needs on an iPad or a laptop. Not all. But a majority.

Perhaps I am expecting iPadOS and iPadOS Scrivener to deliver too much, but iPadOS does seem to offer a new and powerful dawn, and a clear statement of intent from Apple.

Would love to know what Keith is thinking or to have a glimpse into the future.

Slàinte mhòr.

Jo
JoRo
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 6:40 am
Platform: Mac

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:48 am Post

Reading more about this, a thought occurred. In many ways, Scrivener and Project Catalyst share a common logic and a common aim: to let writers write once and then publish in different formats, with only minimal amounts of refinement needed for each output.

Perhaps it is fanciful, but I imagine that Keith might be chuffed to see Apple adopt a concept that Scrivener championed years ago; and if that fancy holds any water, it isn’t too hard to extrapolate to Keith sustaining that initial principle in the future development of Scrivener, is it?

Why write twice if once (big if) is more than sufficient for most users? Why go against Scrivener’s own design concept? Why make life more difficult for users when they could have a common interface across devices? Why not simplify life for the developer and tech-support team? Why not go for the growing market rather than the declining one? Not better to lose some features and some users while building new features and gaining more users in a landscape dominated by iOS and iPadOS? Or is there anything to suggest that macOS devices will one day overtake iOS devices? Isn’t the future pretty clearly signposted?

And if iPadOS Scrivener does ever get built and prove successful, I doubt it would be useful to switch to Windows, as the Windows version would logically, I assume, follow the iPadOS design.

Slàinte mhòr.

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 3640
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:43 am Post

JoRo wrote:Why write twice if once (big if) is more than sufficient for most users?

I think you are missing one important point. The purpose of Project Catalyst is to enable iOS apps to run on Mac OS, not the other way around. Why not? Because Mac OS is much more advanced than iOS or the coming iPadOS, as Katherine pointed out.

So if you have e.g. a game or a very graphic app, which looks great on an iPad, an easy way to port it to OS X would increase the potential user base, because all Mac owners don't have an iPad. But there are still things that Mac OS can do that iPadOS won't be able to do for many years, unless Apple decides to make iPadOS X into a slimmer version of Mac OS running on an iPad with true file handling and multi-tasking, and skips the sandboxing and restrictions for app installation. But that would mean that iPadOS and iOS would go completely different routes.

An iPad has more in common with a large iPhone than with a small Mac, and I don't think Apple will change that and transform the iPad into a touch screen Mac.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running Mojave.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 5440
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:59 pm Post

JoRo wrote:For me, the question isn’t whether I or anyone else wants a dedicated macOS version of Scrivener as we have now; it is whether the market for such an app could survive in an Apple world of universal apps, compiled from the same source code. Yes, some or many people might want macOS Scrivener, but if that number proves in time not to be large enough to sustain a separate development stream, then I assume it would make financial and technical sense for Keith to streamline his work and the company’s offerings. There are already more iOS devices than macOS devices, and the indications are that the disparity between the OSes will only get bigger in time. As developers already have to design and develop for iOS / iPadOS, isn’t it logical to use that same code to run an app on a laptop rather than run expensive and time-consuming development for a market that appears to be shrinking? And especially for a single developer?


*Shrug* There are many more Windows installations than Mac installations, too. By this logic, Mac applications shouldn't exist in the first place.

IMO, iOS devices outnumber Macs because they serve fundamentally different markets. Probably everyone who has a computer also has a phone, but not everyone who has a phone has, wants, or can afford a computer. Tablets lie somewhere in between the two, but IIRC the statistics indicate that tablet sales are relatively stagnant: everyone who wants one, already has one.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 5440
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:12 pm Post

JoRo wrote:Thanks, Katherine.

Yes, I think the current limitations of iOS impede Scrivener for iOS. It doesn’t suit my personal needs, but I know people who have switched to writing on their iPads and who are happy.


*Shrug* There are people who write in Pages or Word and are happy, too.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Jo
JoRo
Posts: 828
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 6:40 am
Platform: Mac

Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:14 am Post

Hi, lunk.

I hadn’t missed the point. I was building from it. And I do think that iPadOS is transforming into a slimmer version of macOS and that its apps (on iPads or Macs) will suit the needs of most consumers, which is the largest part of Scrivener’s market. With some tweaks to the nomenclature, Steve Jobs’ truck analogy pretty much applies, I think.

“When we were an agrarian nation, all cars were trucks, because that's what you needed on the farm. But as vehicles started to be used in the urban centers, cars got more popular … PCs are going to be like trucks. They're still going to be around, they're still going to have a lot of value, but they're going to be used by one out of X people.”



Hi, Katherine.

For me, the Windows analogy has no relevance as we are talking about Apple products.

Yes, iOS serves a (slightly, IMO) different market, but it is the biggest market and it is growing; and its influence will continue to grow with its apps having Trojan Horse access into macOS territory.

And, yes, people write in Word and Pages and Ulysses (and Scrivener) on iOS devices and they are happy. All of those users are, I think, part of Scrivener’s target market.

Not sure why anyone would shrug at potential customers, especially when Apple is making it crystal clear where it sees the future of computing. As referenced above, Steve had that awareness years ago and made the company’s intentions known to all.

I appreciate we see things differently. Keith might share my view or yours or have a unique perspective. He might also make any future decisions based on a personal or emotional preference rather than his or anyone else’s logical train of thought. I prefer macOS and Scrivener 3, but I can see its role diminishing as more and more people drift away from Macs and macOS software. Lots of technologies fade: fax machines, film cameras, VHS recorders, DVDs, etc. Some people cling on. Others move on. I think iPadOS is a watershed moment. That’s all.

The point isn’t about what is better now. It is about what people will use in the future, and fewer of them are going to be using macOS apps / devices, I think. iOS has momentum and traction, at least in my part of the world. macOS doesn’t.

Slàinte mhòr.

EDIT: In the UK, some charities accept donations of furniture. Items are either sold to generate income or donated to people in need. We sold a home last year and had four home-office desks to donate (decent quality; £1500 each when bought in 2012; still in perfect condition; surely worth a few quid or useful to someone). None of the charities would take the desks: “No one wants desks any more. No one has desktop computers.” Lots of other furniture was willingly accepted, even a piano. Indicative, no?

My whole premise is based on what I see happening around me. Not on whether I want something else to happen or whether macOS is a better OS or not. Looking at where the puck is headed; not where it is or was.

Why focus on making parts for trucks when most customers are buying cars? And if a car part can fit a truck, well...

Going to be interesting to see how things stand in a few years, especially if Apple releases ARM-based laptops.

Thanks to both of you for sharing your thoughts.

Ki
Kinsey
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:06 pm
Platform: Mac

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:50 am Post

Interesting points JoRo. Funnily enough, as I read your comment about the train and the prevalence of tablets and similar devices, I was sitting in a café. I counted 5 people using laptops, 1 iPad and a handful of Luddites reading physical books.

To your point about the desirability of a single app for all platforms, I doubt you'd find too many app developers who would disagree. No doubt it would make life an awful lot simpler!

The thing that strikes me about Scrivener iOS is that it was designed precisely for the kind of customer that you are talking about - those who simply want to write and then export their work in the simplest fashion. Judging by the forums, problems arise when people expect the iOS version to perform exactly the same tasks as the desktop version. It can't because iOS and its native devices simply don't have the capabilities. Whether iPadOS (it's an awful name, BTW) and device capability will ever be able to close the gap sufficiently is the question. It's a big gap at the moment. It's also worth revising slightly your categorisation of Scrivener. Yes it's a consumer-focused app, but it hides a set of extremely powerful features that allow people to write and publish their work, and marshal all of the associated research, in one place.

The wider point you are making is very interesting. When you think about it, Scrivener started development before iOS even existed. Smart phones and tablets have since become incredibly popular. Most organisations have strategic risk management practises in place, which identify potential problems and plan for mitigation. Given the signs emanating from Apple (never mind Microsoft), it would be surprising if any macOS developer hadn't embarked on a similar exercise. This is such an excellent product, I have no doubt that we'll all still be using it in future decades.