Scrivener for iOS - When?

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kewms
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:20 am Post

JonKatz wrote:If KB would be willing to license the Scrivener file formats non-exclusively in trade for a reasonable % revenue per license sold, I would consider doing an iOS version, but I would not want to be limited to iOS only. I would want to be able to do any OS, including Android and even OS X.

I don't need or want source code, just the file formats and a promise that nobody else gets a better licensing deal.


The format is pretty open if you're willing to poke around inside a project.

If it were a "throw it together in a few weeks" kind of project, I'm pretty sure it would be done by now.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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kewms
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:23 am Post

Amcmo wrote:Is Scrivener for Mac (and Win) not still the best option out there for most writing? Sounds like one or two others you'd be happy to cut off your nose to spite your own face.


Seriously, this. "I'm willing to use an inferior tool because I'm mad at the Scrivener development team." Ok...

Katherine
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followthechris
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:19 am Post

Amcmo wrote:Followthechris, so you're a dissatisfied Scrivener user, though you give no reason for being dissatisfied, other than your opinion of the iOS development debacle.
For me, that IS the reason to be a dissatisfied customer. It makes Scrivener about 75% less useful to me than the competition. On a broader scope, the fact that they have no iOS app makes them one of the only "competitive" firms without one. Certainly the only major producer of text editing software. Even Mocrosoft Word has an app for Apple's iOS because it is *expected of businesses at the current point in time*.

Amcmo wrote:Yes, they've made mistakes, yet you don't give any facts to support your rather wild opinions.
Every "opinion" stated is backed up by comments in this forum. Check my post history back in 2011 for KB outright stating that he doesn't see iOS as important to Scrivener. Same thread where he balked over development costs. Same thread where he told people who wanted an app to move to Storyist. Same thread where he asked people to no longer discuss Storyist. And every one of those sentiments is echoed in the other iOS posts from around that time. For bits about the development hellhole, simply review the posts about dev. history here. His admission that the "developer" he hired screwed the pooch so badly that now that it's finally with an agency it's having to have the heart rebuilt from the ground up came in his recent blog on iOS status.

Amcmo wrote:Is Scrivener for Mac (and Win) not still the best option out there for most writing? Sounds like one or two others you'd be happy to cut off your nose to spite your own face.
It's a *good* software. It is the one I am most familiar with, and the one that I have paid for. I don't know that it is objectively any better than Storyist or Ulysses, both of which have already developed iOS apps. Hell, the Ulysses app started far after Scriv, and finished quite some time ago. Storyist was out for years before KB even decided to think about an iOS app.[/quote]

Amcmo wrote:Because you've got the snots over the iOS delays (I'm not happy, but at least realistic) you somehow feel that upgrades to Scrivener should be free just to keep you from taking your bat and ball and going off to sulk??
Boy, how irritating is it to have someone on the Internet tell me I have "the snots" -- regardless of how acceptable it has become to attack other posters. I'm not sure where you got the point about me believing Scrivener should be free. I don't know if there has ever been a requirement to pay to upgrade Scrivener -- I've never needed to, have you? All I stated is that if that were to happen at this point, I would not be upgrading. I would move to another software. I'd rather put $50 into new software than $10 into continuing to support Scrivener if they can't get their act together.

Possibly switching softwares has nothing to do with being mad at the development team. It's a desire to do business with honest companies. A desire to pay companies who care about their customers. A desire not to be lied to. And most importantly, a desire to use a feature-complete software package that meets users' needs.

As for the absurd bat and ball analogy that people insist on using -- users have a right to be frustrated with KB. His hollow promises have caused frustrations for years, and an iOS version is an entirely reasonable expectation at this point in time for any software developer. I happen to *need* one to continue using this software, as I am disabled and do not have a laptop. Without an iOS version, there are many, many days where I would like to be using scriv to write but can't because I can't sit at my desktop.

While I'm on that subject, the other common argument is that folks who want an iOS version are "entitled." It may seem "entitled", but think about analogies in other areas: if your AC repairman can fix the problem, but wouldn't come to you -- their driving to your home isn't strictly required as you could disconnect the unit and bring it to them, but it's an expected service at this point in time. What if you had to ship your computer off to another state every time you have a minor technical issue? Phone support is not required, but it is expected in this day and age. As are iOS companion apps and cloud syncing. If you can't provide the commonly expected services, then your business closes -- something I'd hate to see happen to Scrivener.

So yes, I am going to complain loudly and openly. I wish others would too. This isn't just bad luck as KB presents it -- it's the result of terrible, terrible decision making and his hope that people would forget about wanting an iOS version.

I think Storyist now has all the features Scrivener does (which it didn't always), so it would be silly not to switch when I can afford it. Currently on the front page of Storyist's website, one of their ad blurbs is from someone else who switched from Scrivener. I'd love to get a peek at how many of their sales have come from Scrivener users over the last few years.

Am
Amcmo

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:10 am Post

Bat and ball seems a perfect analogy.

I have been in the Storyist beta program and have the latest iOS and OS/X versions installed. It does not compare to Scrivener, by far.

I've also checked Ulysses. If you want a bare bones focus solely on text, it's great, but again sadly lacking in many areas.

In the meantime, there are a number of programs such as Evernote that enable one to be very productive with Scrivener.

So Keith isn't perfect, and some say can be a bit crotchety. Start pissing me off about my 'child' and I'd get a bit crotchety.

Like I said, take your bat and ball.....

I should add, I came to Scrivener from another program and haven't looked back. Some will come, some will go.

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MimeticMouton
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:01 am Post

Any user is perfectly entitled to switch to another software that better meets his or her needs, and I would certainly encourage you to do so if you find yourself sitting down and then not writing because Scrivener doesn't currently provide what you require. The whole point of writing software is to further your writing. If it's not doing that, don't use it. I don't think anyone here, L&L-related or not, would disagree with that. Whether we're all "entitled" to an iOS equivalent/companion of the desktop software we use isn't relevant. The only issue to evaluate is what you personally need to best aid your writing process.

We do ask that all posters refrain from attacking or provoking others, which includes the development and support teams as well as other forum members. It's never productive and just leads to a lot of upset, bitter people. (Which in turns leads either to more not-writing or to angry, bitter books.)

As far as the iOS development history--it's history, and neither compliments nor complaints are going to change what's already happened. Keith has already apologised repeatedly for mistakes made and is and has been working long hours to get the iOS version to life. Calling him (paraphrased) an uncaring liar who's incompetently running a dishonest business that fails to meet users' needs isn't going to get the iOS version out faster or better coded. I don't think you expect it to, either, to be clear, but I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish.

If it's just to let us know there are dissatisfied customers out there, rest assured we know. :) I think we'd have thrown up our hands on the iOS version long ago if we weren't aware of all the users keen to have Scrivener on iOS.

But ultimately this comes round to the initial point: if you need an iOS writing app (and a companion desktop software) to keep writing now, and there is such an app/software out there now that meets that need, don't sit around letting Scrivener's lack of one be an excuse to procrastinate. ;) Get the other software and get back to writing!
Jennifer Hughes
(MM for short)

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matsgz
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:20 am Post

followthechris wrote:It makes Scrivener about 75% less useful to me than the competition.


I read this as, "the competition is four times as useful to me, than Scrivener". So, what are you doing here using Scrivener and ranting about it? Go get a life! Create! Get another software and write four times as much, or as good, or as enjoyable, or as funny, or as sad or whatever. Follow the flow, followthechris!
Scribo ergo sum

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JonKatz
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:24 am Post

kewms wrote:
JonKatz wrote:If KB would be willing to license the Scrivener file formats non-exclusively in trade for a reasonable % revenue per license sold, I would consider doing an iOS version, but I would not want to be limited to iOS only. I would want to be able to do any OS, including Android and even OS X.

I don't need or want source code, just the file formats and a promise that nobody else gets a better licensing deal.


The format is pretty open if you're willing to poke around inside a project.

If it were a "throw it together in a few weeks" kind of project, I'm pretty sure it would be done by now.

Katherine

Anyone who tells you Scrivener is a 1 month app is lying or clueless.

Ethically and legally, I wouldn't want to just use Scrivener's format. I would want to have a fair compensation plan in place, and I would want my users to have compatibility with any changes to the Scrivener format moving forward.

I believe an iOS version would take 6 months for 2 developers and one UX person.

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JonKatz
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:27 am Post

kewms wrote:
Amcmo wrote:Is Scrivener for Mac (and Win) not still the best option out there for most writing? Sounds like one or two others you'd be happy to cut off your nose to spite your own face.


Seriously, this. "I'm willing to use an inferior tool because I'm mad at the Scrivener development team." Ok...

Katherine

Yes... With my last spit, I spit on you --- Khan, The Wrath of Khan

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Flexo
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:01 am Post

If some selfmade app that can do the bare minimum would be good enough, why not just synchronize with a dropbox folder and use something like Editorial until Scrivener iOS is here?

ji
jinchoung
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:08 am Post

is there an informal estimate on whether we can expect it this year or not?

i know devs are loathe to say such things but i think if they're prefaced properly with "don't hold us to it", etc. it never ends up being the nightmare scenario they fear.

updating the blog at least so the last bit of news isn't a rather distressing call for more iOS developers would be nice at least.

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benlovejoy
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:11 am Post

Yep, if you want bare-bones iOS syncing, there's no need to reinvent the wheel. I use PlainText:
http://www.strangecharmed.com/productiv ... plaintext/

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nom
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:27 am Post

It seems that a few disaffected voices are slanting the conversation. For those who may be reading this thread and wondering about some of the claims made, I will state my experiences of Literature and Latte for the record.

When I initially researched long-form writing software, one of the reasons I chose Scrivener over the competitors at the time was because of the ethics and honesty of Keith (at that stage, he *was* Literature & Latte). In every interaction I have had with Keith, and with everyone else on the L&L team, I have found him (and them) to be honest and sincere. While mistakes have been made, he has acknowledged them. I wish more people would have the courage to make such mistakes, let alone to subsequently acknowledge them.

I can (but won't) point to other software developers that post far less (if any) information about their development process than L&L. Some of their apps no longer meet my needs, and I no longer use them. With others, I am occasionally frustrated by their limitations. Some of them appear to be no longer under active development but, in the absence of public announcements, I don't know and have to guess. As with any purchase, when they no longer meet my needs I stop using them.

Scrivener is an app that does meet my needs. As Scrivener has matured, I have not found any other app that comes close to offering the same feature set, the same flexibility, or — this next bit is important to me — the same honesty and directness by the developers. For example, there are very few other developers who actively link to, and promote, competitor products from their own site. This is something the L&L has done for as long as I can remember. Indeed, for a short while back in 2006 (maybe 2007, it's a long time ago!), I used an app found via L&L's site before returning and purchasing Scrivener (I chose well by the way – the other app I trialled subsequently languished for years before being briefly resurrected and then, as best as I can tell, permanently abandoned).

So, let me state this clearly: based on the integrity and honesty demonstrated over many years, I have faith that Keith and the iOS development team will continue to work hard on making the iOS version of Scrivener match the quality of the desktop versions. I thank all the L&L team for their perseverance, patience, and dedication to quality.

I want to publicly acknowledge Keith for his commitment to his ideals, his unwavering honesty, and his outstanding software. Thank you Keith.

I look forward to using the iOS app when it is ready.
Complete and utter NOMsense.
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xiamenese
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:26 pm Post

Absolutely, NOM, couldn't agree more.

I can understand the frustration some people feel over the iOS development, but at the same time, I suspect that the comparisons with other software like Ulysses — which I admit I have never used; I downloaded Ulysses 2, but it didn't agree with me and I've not tried since — that have desktop and iOS versions, but have different and far less complex underlying structures and don't pose the sync'ing problems of Scrivener, that such comparisons are odious.

And I also admit that I don't really need the iOS version, though I did buy my iPad (together with a keyboard) a year ago as I thought I could help with any debugging when the time came as I actively use a mixture of English and Chinese with occasional French. But I find the iPad useful for other things. However, I still understand others' frustration, and, what's more, I wouldn't be surprised if the most frustrated of all is Keith himself.

Let me also point out that Nisus, who, for me, make the best word-processor for OS-X, do not have an iOS version, and if they have been working on one are keeping it completely secret. Their problem would be different from Keith's I believe … not sync'ing, but modifying the iOS text engine to match the highly modified version of the OS-X text engine, which is Nisus Writer Pro. They too have people clamouring for an iOS version.

So yes, as NOM and other's have said: if Scrivener doesn't suit you as there is currently no iOS version, then change to an app that does.

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Patti
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:26 pm Post

I think the frustration is mainly because we don't know how much longer it will be until we see the much-anticipated iOS version.

When a woman is in labor, the pain can be unbearable at times, but the doctor comes in, reassures her that she is progressing, and she knows that, at the end of it all, she'll get to hold her baby.

I would like to see, perhaps, just a quick update on a monthly basis, (I think it's been early Sept. since we heard anything) and an ETA.

Will I buy the iOS version? Absolutely! The moment that it's available. Is there another product on the market that meets my needs better than Scrivener? I haven't found it yet.

BUT in the meantime, I would benefit from a suitable workaround. (Textilus syncing almost cost me months of work :( )MIL has just been diagnosed with breast cancer for the third time--I anticipate a lot of hospital/waiting room time--I would like to be able to take my iPad & get some writing done.

I hate to spend $100 plus trying out the alternatives, (i.e the combined OS X & iOS versions of Ulysses or Storyist) IF it's only a matter of another few months (early 2016). If it's another year, then I might consider it.

With all that being said, I will still buy Scrivener iOS at the end of the long wait, however long that might be.

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followthechris
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:02 pm Post

nom wrote: While mistakes have been made, he has acknowledged them. I wish more people would have the courage to make such mistakes, let alone to subsequently acknowledge them.

This sentence literally makes no sense to me... It's like there are words in the wrong order, or important words were left out...? Why would you ever want someone to make these mistakes again? And how wold it take any courage? They were all made out of a poor business sense and selfishness.

The mistakes were 1) ignoring what customers truly wanted for two years because he felt like his desktop version should be enough for everyone, thank-you-very-much, 2) hiring a single (ultimately unqualified) developer to do a job that needed an entire development team to do properly, 3) letting project languish with said developer for two more years while little development was done properly before finally letting her go, and then 4) spending months with little/no development being done while attempting to hire another lone developer (see point 2).

The only thing he has done right regarding iOS since 2011 was when he sent it to a development agency in Sept. 2015 -- and they're having to gut all the work that his lone developer did and re-write it!

I hope people LEARN from his mistakes. God forbid anyone ever *try* to make such mistakes again.


Patti wrote:I think the frustration is mainly because we don't know how much longer it will be until we see the much-anticipated iOS version.
...
I would like to see, perhaps, just a quick update on a monthly basis, (I think it's been early Sept. since we heard anything) and an ETA.
...
MIL has just been diagnosed with breast cancer for the third time--I anticipate a lot of hospital/waiting room time--I would like to be able to take my iPad & get some writing done.

I hate to spend $100 plus trying out the alternatives, (i.e the combined OS X & iOS versions of Ulysses or Storyist) IF it's only a matter of another few months (early 2016). If it's another year, then I might consider it.


Very sorry to hear about the health problems, Patti. Always a scary time. I'm in very much the same boat you are anticipating being in -- hours on hours in the hospital, and doctors offices, and then in bed when I get home. Time that *can't* be spent with a desktop, but is perfect for an iPad.

Your points are very much in-line with my feelings about this, underneath the the rage at KB, that is. A large part of my problem with him/the development is that he is so easy to brush off his *customers*. This has been shown many times in his forum posts, but is most clearly manifest in your point above -- we hardly ever get development updates. People on this forum have been clamouring for more frequent updates for years, but he refuses to provide them for some reason -- and, since an update is such a small thing, the takeaway for customers who have asked for them is that he simply doesn't care.

It used to be that I wouldn't have thought twice at him asking for $15-20 for a paid upgrade of Scrivener every 18 months or so like other major niche programs (1Password comes to mind). He never did this (IMHO he should have), but as I've stated earlier I certainly wouldn't be willing to pay for an upgrade now. Same with recommendations -- I wouldn't recommend it to anyone at this point, even though years ago I couldn't say enough about it.

My angry posts (and others) won't speed development, but I do hope that KB reads them. He should know just how upset some previously diehard customers have become, and how his poor decisions have affected his brand. Customer feedback -- good and bad -- is one of the most valuable assets to any company.

Anyway, I've said my bit. It's not a persuasive piece; you don't have to agree with me, just recognize that there are people who feel like this. And their opinions are just as valid as yours.


Post Script: In all honesty, I expect for the app to be out in late 2016 now that it's with an agency. With all the required testing, etc. it almost certainly won't be before Q3.
Last edited by followthechris on Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.