Scrivener for iOS - When?

md
mdmullins
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:17 am Post

spg wrote:… but have found parallels access to be remarkably efficient…


I would like to echo this observation.

Ah
Ahab
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:29 am Post

[/quote]Touchy touchy.

Only a piece of software isn't a physical object. Windows charges for updates for the OS and has done so for years and angered quite a few people in the process. Note that OS X updates are now free. Once you've purchased a relatively expensive piece of software then upgrades, in my opinion, should be nominal at best.

And no,it's not a Zen question. It's a practical question. And a not unreasonable one to boot…[/quote]

So, $45 (or whatever it is these days) for Scrivener is expensive? The minor upgrades of Scrivener have always been free. The major upgrades, v2.0 and the someday v3.0, cost money--roughly as much as dinner for two. How else can the programmer be compensated? What's his incentive for spending endless hours coding in his garret?

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Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:39 am Post

Ahab wrote:
Touchy touchy.

Only a piece of software isn't a physical object. Windows charges for updates for the OS and has done so for years and angered quite a few people in the process. Note that OS X updates are now free. Once you've purchased a relatively expensive piece of software then upgrades, in my opinion, should be nominal at best.

And no,it's not a Zen question. It's a practical question. And a not unreasonable one to boot…


So, $45 (or whatever it is these days) for Scrivener is expensive? The minor upgrades of Scrivener have always been free. The major upgrades, v2.0 and the someday v3.0, cost money--roughly as much as dinner for two. How else can the programmer be compensated? What's his incentive for spending endless hours coding in his garret?


I was asking for clarification, not making a political statement. That said, I rarely pay for software at all. There's too much great free stuff out there. Scrivener was one of the few exceptions. This is not an unreasonable line of inquiry, and I think you'll find quite a few budget conscious writers with similar concerns, being the underpaid lot that we are. And given the need, I can eat for weeks on $40.

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KB
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:01 am Post

Thanks for all the support... I'm not losing faith, honestly. :) The iOS version is just a killer.

mdmullins - as is made clear in our EULA and on the website, when you purchase a licence for Scrivener, you are purchasing a licence for that version. So, if you own Scrivener 2, all 2.x updates are free. So far, Scrivener 2.x has had five years of free updates; Scrivener 1.x had four years of free updates. When Scrivener 3 is released, there will be an upgrade price, just as there was from 1.x to 2.x. 1.x to 2.0 was $25 for registered users. No discounts are possible on the Mac App Store, however, so discount prices only apply to users who buy from us direct (although we will probably reduce the price on the App Store for a limited time so that MAS users can upgrade at the same price if they get in early).

There's a very good reason that Apple makes its OS updates free - it's not a software company, and has never made its money out of software. It is in the business of selling hardware, so its free OS updates and bundling of iWork and iLife are all there to attract customers to their hardware. We, however, are a software company, selling a niche product. We have to charge for the work we do. Major updates represent years' worth of extra work adding and refining features, and we need to be paid for those updates in order to survive as a company - because that is our business, selling software.

Incidentally, Apple doesn't always give updates for free - it is usually in the habit of making users pay all over again with no upgrade discount when it releases new software that isn't bundled (iWork, Final Cut etc). But that's beside the point. Yes, you will need to pay an upgrade fee when we release a major update, the same as with most other software companies out there - very few companies that survive by selling software alone do not charge for updates.

(I really worry about the sustainability and future of small, indie software companies given the growing, unrealistic expectation that all software should be free or just very cheap and then with free updates for life.)
"You can't waltz in here, use my toaster, and start spouting universal truths without qualification."

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reepicheep
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:08 am Post

The idea of paying for software upgrades is a red herring. Microsoft also charges for upgrades to Word, which some are naïve enough to consider is a direct one-to-one competitor to Scrivener.

KB has been up-front about charges. Minor updates (bug fixes, small improvements and the like) are free. Major changes, as will be required to provide support for the iOS, are charged—but no where near as much as the usuary cost of a Word upgrade. Similarly if you switch your desktop hardware from Mac to Windows or vice versa that is also major change so you pay. And it in that last class that the iOS version will sit. It's an entirely different hardware platform from either Mac OS X or Windows.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

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spg
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:16 am Post

I can't wait to pay for my next upgrade. And the next and the next...
The thought of Scrivener grinding to a halt because the developer can't afford to continue sends a chill down my spine.
:shock:

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Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:03 pm Post

About upgrades vs purchases...

mdmullins wrote:Only a piece of software isn't a physical object.


mdmullins wrote:That said, I rarely pay for software at all.


Okay, so this is not really a question of whether your purchase of Scrivener in the past should entitle you to free software for ever, but more that you do not like paying for software?

The fact that software is not a physical object has nothing to do with it. Neither are movies you watch, or when you get a haircut. Maybe getting a haircut is a good analogy? You do it fairly regularly, but still you don't expect to get it for free, do you? Or even with a substantial discount on the basis that you claim that this being your second visit to the same hairdresser makes it a subscription?

Was it a fair question? Absolutely! Was it a fair answer from Keith? Definitely!

You don't have to upgrade. Stick to the version you have paid for. It's eternally for free now! :D
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:24 pm Post

lunk wrote:About upgrades vs purchases...

mdmullins wrote:Only a piece of software isn't a physical object.


mdmullins wrote:That said, I rarely pay for software at all.


Okay, so this is not really a question of whether your purchase of Scrivener in the past should entitle you to free software for ever, but more that you do not like paying for software?

The fact that software is not a physical object has nothing to do with it. Neither are movies you watch, or when you get a haircut. Maybe getting a haircut is a good analogy? You do it fairly regularly, but still you don't expect to get it for free, do you? Or even with a substantial discount on the basis that you claim that this being your second visit to the same hairdresser makes it a subscription?

Was it a fair question? Absolutely! Was it a fair answer from Keith? Definitely!

You don't have to upgrade. Stick to the version you have paid for. It's eternally for free now! :D


Which was I think is implied in the original question to begin with. There is an assumption here that some of the answers to these questions are obvious and that asking the question is somehow stupid. But consider, you've "purchased" the software. Will it stop functioning properly at some indefinite point in the future? When? These are normal questions. You put money into something, you have a right to ask the questions. What I'm hearing is that major upgrades come every 4 or 5 years? And that the upgrade cost at the point is $25. Which I think is fair. But these facts were not obvious on the face of it. Certain software companies may charge for a piece of software and then planned obsolescence makes it invalid in 3 or 4 months, at which point you have to make another purchase. And another. And another. We're seeing cash grabs now with a lot of freemium apps on the App Store. As a consumer, you do have a right to know the answer to some very basic questions. So if we could keep the defensiveness to a minimum, maybe clear answers to the questions will surface more readily.

I myself have been programming for decades. I understand intimately what is required for software to work, of the astounding complexities involve. I also understand that a writer can work for years and even decades on a book with little hope of remuneration, so let's not pretend that programmer's have a monopoly on economic disincentives.

Oh, and I often cut my own hair.

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Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:33 pm Post

Some of us don't need haircuts any longer...
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:34 pm Post

KB wrote:(I really worry about the sustainability and future of small, indie software companies given the growing, unrealistic expectation that all software should be free or just very cheap and then with free updates for life.)

Well, that's the model a lot of small, indie software companies are taking too; the ones developing primarily for iOS at least. Produce an app, put it on the store, forget about it. Instead of thinking about upgrades, they simply move on to the next app.

Others do work through updates (eg apps like Tweetbot 3), but a small yet significant proportion of developers have started giving consumers what they think they want, even if it kills 'em.
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mdmullins
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:13 pm Post

KB wrote:Some of us don't need haircuts any longer...


I'm right there with you.

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lunk
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:39 pm Post

mdmullins wrote:Which was I think is implied in the original question to begin with. There is an assumption here that some of the answers to these questions are obvious and that asking the question is somehow stupid. But consider, you've "purchased" the software. Will it stop functioning properly at some indefinite point in the future? When? These are normal questions. You put money into something, you have a right to ask the questions.


I think that honest questions, that are really meant for clarification, without underlying insinuations, are seldom stupid.

mdmullins wrote:Allow me to stir the pot one last time and ask for clarification. So I will need to re-purchase Scrivener at some point in the future? Is this more a subscription than an actual purchase then?


Why would you need to re-purchase Scrivener in the future? You already have Scrivener, so why not just keep using it?
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:07 am Post

mdmullins wrote:Allow me to stir the pot one last time and ask for clarification. So I will need to re-purchase Scrivener at some point in the future? Is this more a subscription than an actual purchase then?
Did you actually purchase Scrivener or did you purchase a lease to use Scrivener? Take a look at Microsoft's licence conditions, for example, and you will see that someone who hands over money for one of their products has not purchased it but has a lease in exchange for a one-off payment. It isn't even an lease in perpetuity as the right to pass that iicence on to someone else is limited. You dispose of the machine and your right to the licence goes too. You buy a second machine you do not have the right to use the licenced product on the new machine.

Even your Linux system(s) licence does not give you automatic rights to upgrades. Does it give you unpaid access to the sources even? The GPL confers the right that you can access the sources but not that if the sources are changed you then have a right to the new versions.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

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Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:30 am Post

Technically it's not a lease (for several reasons, but the primary one is that you don't enjoy exclusive possession of the underlying property / asset). A license is less than a lease which is less than freehold. You can have a license in tangible property / real estate too.
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Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:45 pm Post

pigfender wrote:Technically it's not a lease (for several reasons, but the primary one is that you don't enjoy exclusive possession of the underlying property / asset). A license is less than a lease which is less than freehold. You can have a license in tangible property / real estate too.
Thanks for the legal clarification. Doesn't change the situation though that whatever it is we buy from L&L or any other commercial software company does not provides rights of ownership or of continued maintenance.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1