iCloud Sync

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kewms
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Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:18 pm Post

lunk wrote:I’ve tested DT in the past and my experience was that it was made to store stuff. Scrivener is primarily for writing, creating new text that doesn’t exist anywhere else or before. So if there is a serious hickup in the synchronization you might end up with several thousand freshly written words just being gone, forever. A pdf you downloaded to DT can be downloaded again, but that new text has to be written again, from scratch.

Scrivener is primarily not a database app.


Yes. I hesitate to say that people *don't* write long works in DevonThink. It's theoretically possible, and there are users in the DT forums who talk about assembling long and detailed notes that could certainly morph into technical papers, if not books. But just as Scrivener is *not* primarily a database, DevonThink is *not* primarily a writing tool.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Ci
Cirrocumulus
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Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:26 pm Post

kewms wrote:Earlier in this thread, Keith discussed the differences between "shoebox" applications, like DevonThink, "document" applications, like Word, and Scrivener, which is a hybrid of both. Might be worth reading before we spend any more time beating the dead horse.

Thank you. The first sentence of my post which revived this thread actually says: "I've read KB's detailed explanation above of the hybrid document/shoebox nature of Scrivener".

kewms wrote:I'm not sure how you would make "binder location" into "just some piece of metadata."

I'm not sure either. I am not a developer. I agree that is should probably be an attribute of the entire project. I also know that DT stores a bunch of metadata outside of the items themselves (it's actually visible in @mbbntu's screenshot above) and syncs it without any (major) issues.

kewms wrote:They get remarkably grumpy when they discover that entire chapters of their novels are missing or, worse, have been replaced with older versions.

Judging by the volume of online exchange around this dead horse, the level of grumpiness associated with Scrivener's sync limitations isn't negligible, either. I still don't understand what makes Scrivener file format so exceptional compared to other complex data structures. Of course, a developer is under no obligation to explain that. I was simply hoping to grasp once and for all what the problem was.

As
Astaff
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Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:27 pm Post

As Katherine has stated above, the horse is long dead, no point in flogging it any longer.

Keith has stated the issue clearly, so I don’t get why the need for endless ’but explain why’ and ‘this other (very different) application works, it must be simple for Scrivener to.’

Accept at the moment there is no simple answer and all the but why’s and demands for explanations won’t change it.

Keith has designed a solution with the most easily accessible api (dropbox) that works. He doesn’t owe anyone an explanation of his decision process, nor need to defend it.

I’m sure if the available tools/Apple’s processes/etc, etc change he may revisit synching as time and resources allow.

Remember, he is the sole developer of the amazing Mac and iOS versions so I’m picking he is up to his eyeballs in those, plus running the company.

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kewms
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Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:37 pm Post

I peeked at some of the metadata files for one of my DT databases. They appear to be binary, so it's hard to say what all is in there. As I said, though, DT has no functionality comparable to Scrivener's Binder.

Cirrocumulus wrote:Judging by the volume of online exchange around this dead horse, the level of grumpiness associated with Scrivener's sync limitations isn't negligible, either. I still don't understand what makes Scrivener file format so exceptional compared to other complex data structures. Of course, a developer is under no obligation to explain that. I was simply hoping to grasp once and for all what the problem was.


One is unlikely to suddenly discover that iOS Scrivener doesn't support iCloud when it's the night before an important deadline. As one of those responsible for the support queue, I can say that it's much easier to handle complaints about functions that don't exist at all than complaints about functions that are unreliable.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Ci
Cirrocumulus
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Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:53 am Post

Astaff wrote:Accept at the moment there is no simple answer and all the but why’s and demands for explanations won’t change it.

I never said the answer had to be simple.

And BTW, if the iOS and macOS versions weren't excellent pieces of software I wouldn't have paid L&L 75 euros for both. However, for that sort of expenditure, I *do* find that being the sole developer of both is not an acceptable reason for not implementing what pretty much everyone else on the planet has done. But apparently, mileage on what is acceptable or not varies quite a bit.

Thank you for your comments.

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lunk
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Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:43 am Post

Cirrocumulus wrote:I *do* find that being the sole developer of both is not an acceptable reason for not implementing what pretty much everyone else on the planet has done.

You're looking at it from a strange position, as I see it.

Someone has produced a product.
You decide to buy it.
Afterwords you complain about one detail of the product's design.
The producer has no obligation to explain his design decisions but choose to do so anyhow.
You claim that the answer is "not acceptable".

Well, get yourself another product then. Curiosity is one thing. Demanding answers and then stating that the answers given are "not acceptable" is childish in my opinion.

It's a free world and if I would decide to produce an app its design would be decided by me, not by anyone else. I wouldn't be obliged to have to defend or even explain my design decisions. Neither does KB.

A parallell discussion on this forum is about reference handling software. I use Papers 3, which is under a constant threat to disappear and be replaced by the subscription version of Redcube (who bought Papers 3). So I keep a constant lookout for a possible replacement. Some praise Bookends as an alternative, but it doesn't have some of the things I like about Papers 3. Does this give me the right to criticise Bookends? No. Does it give me the right to ask why a certain feature in Papers 3 is missing in Bookends? Absolutely! Does it give me the right to demand an "acceptable" answer? Certainly not!

I have never understood why some people think they have a right to demand changes to an app or explanations about its design. Do they behave the same way about other products, like cars, or tools, or furniture, or books, or movies, or music?
"I really like this song but I want an acceptable explanation of why you didn't add drums in the last part of the second verse! Stating that you don't have any drums is not an acceptable answer!"
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running Mojave.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

mb
mbbntu
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Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:01 am Post

You should judge people not by how close they get to the top, but by how far they have come from the bottom. Some people have a mountain to climb just to get to the place where others start out. (Me, 2010)

Ci
Cirrocumulus
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Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:12 am Post

Seriously debating whether software is or isn't an art form would take this thread miles away from its intended objective. Let me just say that I strongly disagree. Music and literature are not productivity applications.

I also believe — or witness, rather — that software is being regularly transformed, updated and rethought by its developers based on user input and feedback.

These exchanges are indeed getting weirder by the hour. Thank you for your comments and all the best to you.

As
Astaff
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Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:19 am Post

[quote="Cirrocumulus" However, for that sort of expenditure, I *do* find that being the sole developer of both is not an acceptable reason for not implementing what pretty much everyone else on the planet has done. But apparently, mileage on what is acceptable or not varies quite a bit.

Thank you for your comments.[/quote]

Pretty much everyone in the planet has *not* implemented a solution that works reliably with a Scrivener project package.

As has been explained at great length, multiple times by Keith and L&L support staff, it is not that simple, and the only currently reliable option is the only one supported.

We might all wish for other alternatives, but until something changes in those alternatives, what we have is what we have.

Arguing the toss ad nauseum will not change that.

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lunk
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Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:43 am Post

Cirrocumulus wrote:Music and literature are not productivity applications.

I also believe — or witness, rather — that software is being regularly transformed, updated and rethought by its developers based on user input and feedback.

That’s beside the point. Tools are productivity applications. So are sewing machines. And so are a lot of other things people buy. And those products are transformed, updated and rethought. That isn’t something restricted to computer products.

So, do you regularly request that other producers change their products to your liking or explain why not in a way that you find acceptable? I want to know why you think you have the right to do so when it comes to computer apps.

Your answers so far are not acceptable. ;)
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running Mojave.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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kewms
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Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:49 pm Post

Cirrocumulus wrote:Seriously debating whether software is or isn't an art form would take this thread miles away from its intended objective. Let me just say that I strongly disagree. Music and literature are not productivity applications.


Well, the intended objective appears to be to bully Keith into throwing out Scrivener and starting fresh. I'd rather talk about art, honestly.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Lo
Login
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Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:08 am Post

Think that is a completely misjudged, unfounded, and unnecessary ad hominem attack against someone who has politely asked questions about how things work.

I see Cirrocumulus‘s posts as an attempt to learn and engage; not bully at all. The replies they have received from some people on this thread are both bizarre and uncalled for.

Think Katherine’s post falls foul of the single rule that governs the forum:

viewtopic.php?p=243213#p243213

As
Astaff
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Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:27 am Post

Think that is a completely misjudged, unfounded, and unnecessary ad hominem attack against someone who has politely asked questions about how things work.


Asking a question is not the issue. After it has been explained multiple times and still the questioner keeps on, wears a little thin

Ji
JimRac
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Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:26 pm Post

Some input from someone who has not been involved in the above discussion.
Login wrote:I see Cirrocumulus‘s posts as an attempt to learn and engage; not bully at all.
I disagree.
Cirrocumulus wrote:However, for that sort of expenditure, I *do* find that being the sole developer of both is not an acceptable reason for not implementing what pretty much everyone else on the planet has done. But apparently, mileage on what is acceptable or not varies quite a bit.
Considered in the context of the generous, lengthy explanations that were offered to the poster prior to this comment, I find this post rude, snide and, yes, a bit bullying, in a sort of passive aggressive way.

Best,
Jim
I’m just a customer.

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kewms
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Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:43 pm Post

To be clear, the intended objective *of the thread* appears to be bullying. I responded to Cirrocumulus specifically because of their comment on thread derailment.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team