Feedback wanted: Integration with Aeon Timeline

ra
razyr
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Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:33 pm Post

A good story is driven by interesting things happening to interesting people in interesting places. As authors, we have to manage WHO, WHAT, WHEN and WHERE.

Aeon Timeline does an excellent job with WHAT and WHEN through a rich set of definable properties and sync capabilities of event objects with Scrivener. I don't think there's much missing with event sync. It seems both versatile and flexible. However, unlike some of the other posters, I'm not trying to move a huge timeline from AT2 into S2. My projects have grown organically in S2 and have been synced into AT2 as the project grew. I won't say everything is perfect in event-sync-land as my experience is limited. Using custom meta-data seems to be a reasonable way of handling data sync, perhaps with some refinements.

WHO and WHERE are handled in AT2 through "entity" objects which are far more primitive than event objects. Entities are used for all non-events: people, places, story arcs, chapters... Entities can be just about anything an author decides to define in their timeline. It's my opinion that it's the entity area which needs the most work and my gut feeling is that most of this has to happen on the AT2 end of the relationship. I think if we fully define how entity sync should work in AT2, only then can Matt suggest to Keith whether there's some tweaking which would assist from the Scrivener side.

If AT2 only had a timeline view, the current sync situation would be quite sufficient. But, AT2 has a relationship view which I find even more powerful than outline view in S2. Relationship view excels at showing the relationship between events (WHAT/WHEN) with the people, locations, arcs, chapters, etc... It's very powerful for sorting out continuity errors in your plot timeline.

There are some definite flaws in the way the two programs are syncing as of writing this. My biggest pet peeve is how AT2 tries to autodetect and auto-create new entities. If you make a minor typo in a place name, for example, it populates your AT2 entity list with a new location. So it's pretty easy to end up with "Main St.", "Main St", "main st.", "main st" and "Main Street" in your entity list, all versions of the same intended location. I asked about this in the blog, but what we really need is a way for custom meta-data fields to be able to either pick from a list or auto-complete names. I understand from Keith that these are currently just dumb text inputs and it may not be possible to implement. If that is the case, then I'd encourage Matt to remove this auto-creation feature or make it a feature that can be toggled off by the user.

I think what is really needed as a minimum or floor to synchronization is the ability to arbitrarily assign a Scrivener document to an arbitrary entity. The bare minimum information to be synced could be nothing more than the title/name and the synopsis/description. That would allow us as authors to put a brief description of the character, place, arc... in the synopsis in Scrivener, then see that information in the relationship view in AT2. It would be wonderful to have more sophisticated sync, but I don't you'll find any two authors that will agree on how that should work. We each have our own binder structure and ways to organize character and location information. At least with this minimal model, any author would be able to point any entity to any document and say "This document has the info on this particular person/place/arc/etc..." If we try to get too sophisticated with a sync model, one of two things is going to happen. 1) It's too complex and doesn't get implemented. 2.) It's too restrictive and forces authors to change the way their binder is organized.

I do think that, with a bit of joint effort among the Scrivener/Aeon Timeline devs and the user communities, we could come up with some sort of "best practices" or "recommended workflow" for getting the most out of the two programs. They certainly are a good fit. What Scrivener lacks in visual representation is covered by Aeon Timeline. What AT2 lacks in drill-down depth of information about a single event or entity is readily covered off in Scrivener, which is designed from the ground up for recording detail.

I believe where most users get into trouble with AT2/Scriv sync is when they try to bury too much information in AT2. We as users need to recognize the strengths of each program and not try to do everything on one end of the relationship. We need to accept that not everything we have in Scrivener needs to be displayed in AT2. I guess what I'm saying, is there is a difference between "need to have" and "nice to have". Let's start with the basics, then see how it goes from there.

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rucontent
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Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:27 pm Post

I just downloaded the trial version because i was looking for a timeline software, when i saw this one sync's with Scrivener. Which i love, and am new to. no brainer i want it.

but i want it to be intuitive too. I would have expected Aeon would know i have scrivener projects and let me open them some how. But if i browse to a scrivener file, its disabled greyed out. No way that i can see, right now, how to get that sync to occur.

thanks if you know

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Silverdragon
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Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:08 pm Post

rucontent wrote:I just downloaded the trial version because i was looking for a timeline software, when i saw this one sync's with Scrivener. Which i love, and am new to. no brainer i want it.

but i want it to be intuitive too. I would have expected Aeon would know i have scrivener projects and let me open them some how. But if i browse to a scrivener file, its disabled greyed out. No way that i can see, right now, how to get that sync to occur.

thanks if you know

  1. The projects that you want to sync can't be open in Scrivener. Close them in Scrivener before you try to do anything with them in Aeon Timeline.
  2. The commands you want in Aeon Timeline are under the Sync menu, not the File menu.
  3. Please, please, read about Scrivener syncing in the Aeon Timeline manual before you go any further with this.
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rucontent
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Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:25 am Post

Thank You Silver Dragon.

I did follow your instructions. But I still get the
"Selected Project is open in another application," error message. Nothing is open. I had restarted the machine to kill any processes or whatever.

So now Im reluctant to pursue this further, but just curious if this is a known issue. The sync doesnt seem to work that great. I have seen other posts, though not exhaustively.

This almost feels like a feature that would be great in Scrivener period.

ANyway, thanks for response.

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Silverdragon
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Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:39 am Post

First quit Aeon completely. Go back to Scrivener and open and then close the project. If you get a message in Scrivener that the project is open elsewhere, ignore it. Then quit Scrivener completely. In Aeon, create a new timeline document. Now try to sync in Aeon . The Scrivener sync panel should open.

It's not automatic. Few things having to do with Scrivener syncing are. I find Aeon Timeline sync valuable, but there's still a lot of hand work to do.

But yeah, if it's not at the level of "intuitive" you're comfortable with, I get it. Sorry I can't be of more help.
So you know where I'm coming from:
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GreyT
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Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:19 pm Post

I use Scrivener combined with Aeon Timeline, on an iMac 27"-5K. It is a great combination. Some of my project are large, maybe 3000 items totalling 4 GB or larger. I know I can search and find anything in Scrivener, but love Aeon for the matrix view of the connections. the syncing is working fine (remember to close project in scrivener). In Aeon I rely fully on the 4 custom metadata fields: Start, participant, observer and Arc.

I found a unexpected thing when syncing. If the "Start:" is empty the record will be put "at random" onto the Aeon timeline. That is since I always use the matrixview, I am not concerned about placement on timeline :-) and the only reason I found out is that after syncing complete project (back to Scrivener) there was one specific date for all, until now, empty "start:" fields.

What I did was using Keyboard Maestro to create a practical macro that would find all these records with that specific content and then replace with correct date.

Have to include that every Synopsis line in my project starts with date covering the item (put there manually, my choice). And this is in the form "2018-08-15 This is the synopsisdescrition" whereas the Start: will look like this "Tue 2022-02-25". so I search in scrivener for Tue 2022-02-25 (the search includes the metadata fields) and since every manual entered date will be in Europian/Danish format only the records with peculiar metadata will be found. The macro then copies the correct date and paste (overwrite) into Start: ... last step is to repeat search removing the just corrected record from search... and so on.

Maybe this is too hairy for the forum, but it works for me. You are welcome to ask for details.

Scrivener and Aeon Timeline is a fine match... and Keyboard Maestro is a super tool for automating both simple and complex jobs.

Palle GreyT

za
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Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:15 pm Post

Yeah, I discovered the Aeon-Scrivener sync a short while ago and think Aeon could be a really useful tool once I get familiar with all its features.

I started off just using the sync to get my dates right. This took a few passes as you cant use Aeon to create metadata fields in Scriv all in one go, you have to do it one keyword at a time (something which could be fixed perhaps?).

Then I found the events were grouping into tall stacks in Aeon, even when I zoomed in quite a bit. To get around this I used keywords/tags and filters/categories to demarcate the stacks into various story through-lines. This process could be enhanced perhaps by being able to tie some more of the Aeon entities into Scrivener projects.

Really hoping the Scriv-Aeon symbiosis gets taken further and closer :)

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kewms
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Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:32 pm Post

Note that Aeon is not a Literature & Latte product. Support and feature requests should be posted to their forums, not here.

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ja
jacquot
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:13 am Post

Having linked my Scrivener project to Timeline and worked out a detailed event timeline, I'd find it very useful to have the Timeline dates visible in the Scrivener binder. The dates could appear in a pop-up window when the user's mouse hovers over a binder element. Full synchronous integration between the two products would be hard to achieve, and probably overkill, but reading dates from the Timeline json file into Scrivener would, I'd have thought, be child's play to your developers. As things stand, I need to print the timeline in order to be able to refer to it while I'm using Scrivener because Timeline can't open an active project.

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rdale
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:10 pm Post

Aeon Timeline does the integration, and it uses custom metadata to store dates and other synchronized information. You should be able to go to outline mode to add those dates as columns.
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Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:25 am Post

rdale wrote:Aeon Timeline does the integration, and it uses custom metadata to store dates and other synchronized information. You should be able to go to outline mode to add those dates as columns.


Thanks, but that doesn't appear to be the case with Version: 1.9.15.0. There are no custom meta data fields in 'Meta Data Settings' in my synched project.

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xiamenese
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Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:40 pm Post

jacquot wrote:
rdale wrote:Aeon Timeline does the integration, and it uses custom metadata to store dates and other synchronized information. You should be able to go to outline mode to add those dates as columns.


Thanks, but that doesn't appear to be the case with Version: 1.9.15.0. There are no custom meta data fields in 'Meta Data Settings' in my synched project.

This is the Mac forum and (a) you're using Windows; (b) you're using version 1.9, which, in this matter, equates to Mac v.2, which didn't have the custom meta data fields either. Perhaps you should take a look at the Windows 3 Beta.

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Jestar
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Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:36 pm Post

xiamenese wrote:
jacquot wrote:
rdale wrote:Aeon Timeline does the integration, and it uses custom metadata to store dates and other synchronized information. You should be able to go to outline mode to add those dates as columns.


Thanks, but that doesn't appear to be the case with Version: 1.9.15.0. There are no custom meta data fields in 'Meta Data Settings' in my synched project.

This is the Mac forum and (a) you're using Windows; (b) you're using version 1.9, which, in this matter, equates to Mac v.2, which didn't have the custom meta data fields either. Perhaps you should take a look at the Windows 3 Beta.

Mark

So, not exactly helpful with this post, Mark. 1) I came here to this thread via a cross-posted link in Feedback (Windows)https://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31. 2) Custom Meta-data is available in the 1.9.x version of Scriv for Windows (see screenshot)
Custom_Meta-data_ss1.9.png
screenshot
Custom_Meta-data_ss1.9.png (11.86 KiB) Viewed 100 times

I believe you would need to set up/add the custom meta-data fields here in Scrivener to be able to see them after a sync from Aeon. Haven't played with this lately as I've been working with the Win Scriv beta.
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rdale
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Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:17 pm Post

That seems off to me, but I haven't used Aeon Timeline in a long while, and may not have the latest version. My last exposure to it though was that if you set up AT to sync with a project, then it creates custom metadata in that project to store its information.

Maybe in the latest version, the creator of Aeon Timeline has moved away from that, and just keeps track of documents within its own timelines without altering the Scrivener project? I'm sure someone on their forums would be more knowledgeable than I would be.
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Silverdragon
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Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:27 pm Post

No, it still works the way you describe, RDale. There was a bug in the Scriv3 handling of date formats that could result in historic or future dates being off by a century, and another that could result in time zone anomalies. The workaround was to create date fields as *text* in Scriv in advance. I'm sure the bugs are squashed by now, as it's been at least two revisions since they were reported, but I admit I've never gone back and tested it—haven't started anything new that's complicated enough to be worth the effort. :D
So you know where I'm coming from:
  • I write fiction.
  • I'm not an L&L employee.
  • Mac Scrivener 3.1.4, MacBook Air 11, MacOS 10.14.6 (Mojave)
  • IOS Scrivener 1.2; iPhone 8+, iPad 6; i(Pad)OS 13.2.3
  • Website: https://silverdrag0n.wordpress.com