It is good to know that I am not alone.

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Jaysen
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Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:15 am Post

First the mushy parts... My wife gave me an early Christmas gift... my paid license for scriv. First she ups and gets me my dream mac, then she gets me the software that I had been trying to justify buying (more on that irrational process later). I said it before and I'll say it to anyone who I can get to stand still long enough, "I definitely have the better end of this bargain!"

Keith, you have given me hope. to quote you from the about page:
I developed Scrivener because I felt I needed a tool to help me really get a grip on my writing, notes and research, to organise it and start putting it all together like a jigsaw.

While I doubt that we are entirely alike I find that scriv enables me to be creative without the cumbersome requirement of changing the way I think or organize my thoughts once recorded. Which means that there is more than one person who uses similar methods as I do to create... Well, i don't know what you have created other than scriv. Looks like I need to look through the archives and see what I can find.

While I have no hopes or aspirations to be a great writer at any caliber, I do like to pretend that there is more to my life than the bits and bytes that pass through the CPUs and subsystems of emotionless masses of silicon on their way to some remote network where they will be used for God knows what. Even if no one other than the wife or precious ones will ever know of their existence, I am looking forward to the day when I can retrieve my ramblings from a local press and store them next to the many other vanity publications that seem to collect like dust bunnies in the corners of every room in my house. To know that she approves and wants to see me succeed...

Or maybe this is just her way of shutting me up, pacifying me with a new tool and encouraging me to chase a harmless dream down a well used deer trail until I come back exhausted just to curl up at her feet for an afternoon nap. Knowing that this time the exhaustion would be from the chase and not from struggling against a tool, a process, that just doesn't seem to fit right.

Either way I now know three very important things.
1) She doesn't mind the rambling, not one little bit.
2) Someone else seems to process information and ideas like I do (enough to make scriv).
3) There sure seem to be alot of folks out there that think like Keith and I do.

So I am not alone.

BTW you need to charge more. I know the exact opposite of what I am supposed to say, but here is why (this is the irrational justification that I mentioned earlier). The "normal" tools cost a small fortune. Last tally to accomplish a simple book used 5 separate pieces of software, required multiple copies of each resource (approximate 3x the required disk space), and ran about $US1000 in software. If I take out the one thing that you acknowledge that scriv is simply not supposed to do (final layout) I am down to about $US600. Now in my line of work spending multiple millions of dollars because "it is the industry standard" is the norm. So when I start taking a look at software that runs about 6.6667% of the expected cost I start second guessing the software. It doesn't matter that I was able to get more accomplished during the trial period then the previous 3 months combined. Once I looked at my time log I started to think that something was WAY wrong. I had spent less than 10 hours using scrivener and produced more than the previous 120 hours. This was a NEW project. How in the world could someone charge so little for a tool that provides this level of productivity?

Good thing my wife thinks like a sane person.

To sum it all up.. Thank you for a great tool. I have some work to do so you may not hear much from me for a while.

Jaysen

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Eldritch
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Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:34 am Post

Yeah, that sounds an absolutely excellent idea. Scrivener for $1500 so that people are safe in the knowledge they are buying a quality assured package. I, personally, wouldn't be able to afford it, but hey, at least I could sleep safe at night knowing the 'corporate' types are satisfied they have a quality product. That they too can sleep soundly, a high price having garanteed quality instead of the troublesome, tiring and blatantly stupid approach of taking the time to try the product out.

Well said Sir. Go for it Keith. :D
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Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:19 pm Post

ummm... not sure just how to phrase this, or even how to approach it, but...

Keith, I admit to having, once or twice in the past, suggested that you might reconsider the price of Scrivener. Not the value, which I will grant is enormous. Nor the cost, which you alone can determine. But the price. It ought -- considering the tariff on other superficially similar apps -- to have a somewhat higher price tag.

Somewhat, Keith, somewhat. Really, I have to say that $1500 would be too much. Again, I'll be (among) the first to say that S is currently underpriced, but an exponential (in $ terms) increase may actually be counterproductive.

If nothing else, think of poor Vic, scrabbling around for loose coins on the floor of the Red Lion, hoping to gather enough for a down payment on the upgrade.

Phil

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KB
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Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:28 pm Post

Welcome to the boards, Jaysen, and thank you very much for your kind words about Scrivener. :)

I do understand that someone might think that Scrivener must be a bargain-basement under-featured tool if they judge it on price alone when compared to the prices of certain other apps. But on the other hand, Scrivener is aimed at aspiring writers as well as professionals, many of whom do not have lots of money to spend on expensive software. I wanted to try to ensure that just about anybody would be able to afford it should they decide they wanted to write. Hopefully the 30-day trial and screencast is enough to reassure anybody who thinks that a cheap tool must be of little value. I hope.

Anyway, thanks again!
All the best,
Keith

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Jaysen
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Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:43 pm Post

While seemingly addressed to Keith, this is addressed to all who have replied so far. Only an explanation of what I was trying to say before.

KB wrote:Welcome to the boards, Jaysen, and thank you very much for your kind words about Scrivener. :)

Just stating the obvious. As a fellow "let me write the tool myself" type I know that it is sometimes nice to know that the sweat and tears (and occasional blood) are really worth it.

KB wrote:I do understand that someone might think that Scrivener must be a bargain-basement under-featured tool if they judge it on price alone when compared to the prices of certain other apps. But on the other hand, Scrivener is aimed at aspiring writers as well as professionals, many of whom do not have lots of money to spend on expensive software. I wanted to try to ensure that just about anybody would be able to afford it should they decide they wanted to write. Hopefully the 30-day trial and screencast is enough to reassure anybody who thinks that a cheap tool must be of little value. I hope.

I guess the wife is right about my sense of humor as well... Let me clarify my position.

1) Scrivener is an amazing tool (finished another chapter last night)
2) Scrivener is under priced.
3) This causes the ROI to exceed limits for reality based analysis.
4) Only idiots or corporate droids pay more for less.
5) While I am not a complete corporate droid there are a number of folks that I have tried to introduce to scriv who are. They get stuck at #3.

So while I agree that you have not only met, but exceeded your goal of inexpensive, high value software, I think those of us who are stuck in the droid armies will always be skeptical. Our loss. What I find funny is that if this was OSS no droid would question its value. It only seems that we balk at the idea that we are getting more than we paid for.

Which leads me to the humor. In my original post I am actually making fun of myself. Quite frankly only an idiot would take the amount of time debating ROI that I have (that would be the humor again). I never had an issue with the meager cost of scriv. I was more concerned about the "industry standard" view on ROI which would probably mean that all my output would read just like the work of everyone else. AKA I have nothing of value to add to the community that scriv was designed for. If that is true then it doesn't matter what solution I purchase as it would be a wasted investment. But I digress.

My whole point is this: Scrivener is worth more than it is being sold for. While I am thrilled by this I think it rips you (Keith) off. I think your reasons are nobel, but as a computer nerd who wants to be more, I would rather pay more up front to ensure that you can keep supporting scriv (I guess I assume that there is another job that is paying the bills). I guess this is a personal thing as I was burnt making the mistake of undercharging (it may not be a mistake for you).

Here is what I propose to address this: add an additional higher cost premium edition. Something that we can upgrade to that would be a no or low effort add on your part. Say providing some bundled project templates or a dedicated forum area (we can talk Jamaican vs. Colombian beans).

Just an idea. Like I said before, you have succeeded in your goals for scriv, developing a product that is much better than it first appears, keeping it low cost, and providing a better tool for you to use yourself. It is your baby and I won't begrudge you ignoring me entirely.

Now for that other goal. Care to share any of your work? I haven't had time to look you up yet to figure out what you might have produced.

KB wrote:Anyway, thanks again!
All the best,
Keith

Your welcome.

Jaysen

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Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:49 pm Post

And there Jason, mon ami, you have it! , as I oft times say, In the shell of a nut. Not one nano-gramme of cynicism in the man or his baby. he doesn`t know how to code cynicism.

I was very tempted to comment on your post, earlier on, with almost those very same words, that the Skipper himself used.

I think you`ll find Scrivener is, a Labour of Love; emanates from the heart, through the brain and on to your screen.

Whilst I believe Keith should get more for his effort, than he does at present( at least 40%), the quality of the software and the user base he aims it at, for the reasons he has stated, is what makes Scrivener unique.

Scrivener is quintessentially, the aspiring as well as established writers` nirvana, at least that`s the impression I get from reading peoples posts.

Keep it affordable for all. :lol: If other`s respect and admiration for his principles, is worth anything to him, he`s got mine by the bucket full .

Take care
Vic.
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Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:06 pm Post

Simple, do what everyone else does. Make a Scrivener Enterprise version which has one or two extra buzz-word laden but otherwise useless features, sell it for $1,300 a seat, and then everyone is happy.

A waffle iron controller might be good, that would lend a lot of credibility in the Portland market.
.:.
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vic-k
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Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:26 pm Post

Yeaahh!! that`s a great idea! Something to cut back on all the waffle that comes out Portland :lol: I like it I like it I like it!! Tra la la lala la laaa...
As a professional, you, are your one and only asset. Without integrity you are worthless, but with it, you are priceless.

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Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:41 pm Post

Scriv is priced right, imo. (Btw, there was already a long thread about the price). I already had many writing tools when Scrivener appeared. So, while I think it's a great app, I wouldn't have bought it (or even tried it) if it had carried a higher price. There are already several writing apps in this price range that work well. And I already owned several apps I was happy with. In the end, you can put a sky-high price on any product, and if you're the ONLY one producing such a product you might even get people to buy it.

In this case, I'd say putting a higher price on Scrivener, just because you can, is not a good idea, nor would it be productive. Many people would just walk on by—why bother even trying the demo to something they would have trouble paying for? I did exactly that with Ulysses and several other higher priced apps.

Finally, I would say that Keith has obviously put a lot of love and work into Scrivener, but his objective seems to be (in addition to making some money) to HELP aspiring writers, not gouge them. Bear in mind that freelance writing is one of the lowest paid of all occupations. For every Stephen King who makes millions of dollars on every book he writes there are many thousands of writers who are lucky if they make minimum wage.

Ma
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Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:13 am Post

Let us not forget that some have had to pay $1000 or more in order to purchase Scrivener. Of course, most of that went toward the hardware to run it. Keith, you really do deserve a kickback from Apple.

Margaret

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Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:06 pm Post

Whilst I understand the point, I am one of those poor but aspiring writers. I too have a shedload of word processing programmes. Scrivener is by far and away the most important piece of software on my Mac.

Maybe there is a middle ground... On the sale of the 10,000 copy of our book(s) we send Keith a cheque for...
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Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:24 pm Post

I think SCR is priced right for its amount of features, etc.

I think what amazes people is how well it is thought out and how well it is written.

It is such a good product that people feel its value is worth much more.

THe pricing is right becuase really its a $50 or less product when compared to its niche and market.

Its VALUE to a consumer though is worth $1500 easy.

I think that is why Macworld gave it such a high rating and everyone that has purchased it feels they got more than their money's worth.

But, keeping the price under $50.00 allows any aspiring writer to be able to afford to use it and in the end broadens the community which benefits every user.

$49.95 easy

$1,500 although worth it to many would limit the user base to a specialized aspect.
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Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:16 am Post

You all underestimate the amount of hand-holding enterprise types expect with their $1500 license. I think Keith's level of support in the forums is superb, but an enterprise customer expects to be able to call you any time, five days a week, and cry to you on the phone for half an hour because they accidentally fed their autosave into the quantum fantangler (All Dell laptops come with this feature. It's by Symantec.) and their extremely important fiscal report was completely garbled.

No, Scrivener's low price point does an important thing - it keeps most enterprise users OUT. And those who DO use it in the enterprise understand that it's a one-man gig and they'll have to exercise a little resourcefulness in their efforts.

I for one greatly appreciate Scrivener's low price. It meant I was able to switch easily when I was on a student's budget, even though I'd already paid for (and was using) Jer's Novel Writer. It also means I can convert as many of my writing friends away from Microsoft Word Hell without having to make them poor.

And as has been mentioned - anybody who actually uses Scrivener for the trial period knows its quality goes far beyond its price.

th
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Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:49 am Post

This program is fantastic. It is so simple to use and as we all know it is much more difficult to write a simple story than a complex one.

I originally purchased a program called Power Structure. It's cost was around $200 and to this day I still feel ripped off. First, I still don't understand it. I never wanted to write because I couldn't figure out the darn program. And when all is said and done it couldn't do half of what the Scriv does. At least nobody I knew couldn't understand if it did.

Keith, thank you again for your time and effort. Would I have paid more for it? Certainly. But then again if it had been priced at what it's worth I wouldn't have wanted to make the mistake I made with Power Structure and never would have been here writing this.

If you want people to discover it word of mouth will rule the day. I have told several A list screenwriters about it. The word is spreading. Leave the price alone. I think one of the remarkable things about Scriv is when you find out how good it is and how cheap it was. It makes you want to tell a friend.

Write on, my friends!
MAK

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Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:50 am Post

vic-k wrote:Yeaahh!! that`s a great idea! Something to cut back on all the waffle that comes out Portland :lol: I like it I like it I like it!! Tra la la lala la laaa...


Hey, just a moment there. I missed this. There may be a lot of waffles 'eaten' in Portland, but to use waffles to make fun of Portlanders, that's just too low, even for you Vic. Or should I say, Le D., since only he would say something so sinister! :twisted:

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