Don't force me...

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KB
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:46 pm Post

I'm yet somewhat confused about, well, Apple ignores the HIG sometimes, so it's a good thing to do, but they shouldn't, and developers hope that things get better, but in the meantime, they use Apple as a reason to ignore the HIG.


(Sighs.) This is not what I am doing, not at all. But it is a valid point that Apple don't stick to them. Why not? Because OS X is evolving. As for Force Save: Look, it makes sense. I have listened to other views on this topic, weighed them up, and ultimately I disagree. I have to go with what I think is right. I value feedback, and if you familiarise yourself with the forum's archives, given your tone I think you will be surprised at just how much of Scrivener's development has been pushed forward by user feedback and suggestions. The whole order of the menus was rearranged very carefully to fit in more with the HIG because of user suggestions. The way the corkboard is automatically selected when you select a folder - user suggestion. The way multiple cards are displayed when you select multiple items in the binder - user suggestion (Eiron's, in fact, and Amber's too, I think). Underline in header view to indicate current document - user suggestion. Well, I won't go on, because I would be here for days. Suffice to say that I do value suggestions and feedback, and the historical development of the program backs this statement up, and I may get quite narked if anyone suggests otherwise. That said, Scrivener is not written by committee. I seriously consider all feedback, and then I make a decision. Often, that decision will be "no". In this case, "Force Save" makes complete sense. Scrivener auto-saves for you whenever changes have been made and the program has been inactive for two seconds (or when it is closed). In such cases, many programs do not have a Save feature at all. So in Scrivener, you are "forcing" a save.

Of course, it's Keith's program, and if he wants to say Write the Current Stack Operands to Disc in Their Current State rather than Save, that's his choice. Mainly, I've been using Scrivener to write for a bit over a week, it seems quite nice for that, and really, as long as I just hit Command S, I don't even have to see the menu.


Right, "Write the Current Stack Operands to Disc in Their Current State" it is. Just to please you. :)

Oh, you know what? Sod it. I'll just rename "Force Save" to "Save". This is too many words over something so trivial. I'll do it. Fine.

Best,
Keith

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Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:52 pm Post

Oh, you know what? Sod it. I'll just rename "Force Save" to "Save". This is too many words over something so trivial. I'll do it. Fine.


Got into the Cava, already, eh? :D

Dave

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Eiron
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:03 pm Post

You realize that if you do this, some wanker will just ask "If there's a Save command, why can't I disable automatic saves?" -- just wait. You heard it here first.
So if the Cava's making the decisions tonight why not throw up your hands and give in to a really useful suggestion like hmm, i don't know...

Don't worry, Keith. People love and value both Scrivener and You; Forced Save, big nose and all. Have a drink.

Cheers,

E

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Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:24 pm Post

As a relative newcomer to Scrivener and L&L let me just say I cannot see what all the fuss is about here. So it's called Force Save. So what? It's still invoked with a Cmd-S. KB was trying to be clearer. I don't get the consternation.

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Eiron
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:26 pm Post

Neither do most of us.

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lenf
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:30 pm Post

KB wrote:Right, "Write the Current Stack Operands to Disc in Their Current State" it is. Just to please you. :)

Oh, you know what? Sod it. I'll just rename "Force Save" to "Save". This is too many words over something so trivial. I'll do it. Fine.

Best,
Keith


Well, at least I'm glad I didn't say anything about the dirty fork... :D

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Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:33 pm Post

"Save Now"?

To me that's the perfect compromise. But I can live with any of the above. I just love how my work is always saved by the time I think to check the little red button.

Andy

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KB
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:37 pm Post

Well, at least I'm glad I didn't say anything about the dirty fork...


Lol, your Monty Python reference has cheered me up no end. :)

All the best,
Keith

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Eiron
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:41 pm Post

Well, at least I'm glad I didn't say anything about the dirty fork..

:)

(For those of us who can't quite remember the details of the Dirty Fork sketch. How appropriate can you get?)

I think Keith was getting it on several fronts today. And he tries so hard to be helpful and polite. I'd be garotting people by now; not least of all myself. We're all Scrivener devotees round here, and many of us have been waiting a long time for software that actually writes this well-- it's not surpirising that users want to make it perfect and that all the argument roomsand asking for choc ices would get annoying after a while.

No big deal.

Welcome.

E

oops thought you were off drinking.
Last edited by Eiron on Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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alexwein
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:27 pm Post

All I have to say is, you bastards! You vicious heartless bastards! Look what you've done to Keith! He's worked his fingers to the bone to make this program what it is! And you come in here with your petty, vicious, heartless quibbling, and you grind him into the dirt! This fine, honorable man whose boots you are not worthy to kiss! Oh... it makes me mad!


(:) that was fun. For those without a clue, check out Eiron's link :wink: )
Inspiration is for amateurs...the rest of us just show up.
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AmberV
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:31 pm Post

I am actually shocked at how civilised things are around here. Generally, you stick a bunch of writers into a forum and in five minutes they'll be shredding each other into mince pies over whether or not there should be spaces around an em dash...

Oh, wait...
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
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alexwein
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:34 pm Post

:) :)
Inspiration is for amateurs...the rest of us just show up.
-Chuck Close
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Inkling
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:40 pm Post

On the original topic, I think the suggestion of 'Manual Save' would be more appropriate, as it implies that there us an automatic save on by default. I'm not particularly bothered, as a user, because I never use the save function ^^ However in terms of accomadating new users, and creating a professional interface, I believe 'Manual' would be a better word to use.

More honey to go with the...well, the honey. Scrivener is damn sweet all over ;)

Edit: Or the 'Save Now'

Force Quit isn't objectional per say, but it is a little...forceful :roll: in terms of presentation.

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Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:51 pm Post

KB wrote:Lol, your Monty Python reference has cheered me up no end. :)

Oh, god. I hope no one tells him about the dirty knife!

T
In theory, there's no difference
between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.

Yogi Berra

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lenf
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Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:14 pm Post

AmberV wrote:My opinion is pretty simple: HIG is an extremely Woz kind of thing; not at all a Jobs kind of thing.


I got to work with Woz for a few days back in the late '80s, some left over scribblings from writings for Berkeley Mac User Group (ya BMUG!). I could be wrong, but from knowing and being around the guy a bit, Woz would more likely...

Put "Force Save" in the menu, but wrangle the pixels into some odd subroutine that made it look like "Save" for all but a millisecond when the menu was invoked. If the user selected the Save command, the code would whip through a loop that triggered the proper routine in an Icelandic scrap of DOS, do the blinkie thing in the File menu, and pause. The important bit is that he would do this in a way requiring 150.43 fewer CPU cycles than a straight save, and he'd tell you about it over a couple of microbrews, just for fun. :)

AmberV wrote: Generally, you stick a bunch of writers into a forum and in five minutes they'll be shredding each other into mince pies over whether or not there should be spaces around an em dash...


Oh, but that's easy! Spaces around em dashes are mostly like enhanced breasts. Ya, they kinda, sorta look better, but deep down inside... :D