Scrivener should become subscription

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xiamenese
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Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:06 pm Post

Scribhneoir wrote:
KB wrote:
[list]
[*]The Windows version is hugely overdue and this is hurting the faith our users have in us. And yet it’s an impossible situation. I don’t want to go into internal matters, but there is no way of throwing money at it that will fix this. The Windows update *will* be released, I hasten to add, but we need seriously to evaluate how to avoid this situation in the future.


Why should Windows users believe you? And if you do really release it, how many more years will it be?

Last August Lee said "a few more weeks, not months." The one year anniversary of this whopper is less than two weeks away. It looks to me like finishing this upgrade is way beyond the abilities of the Windows developers.

I almost wish you would go to a subscription model. That would make it easy for me to totally ditch Scrivener.

So just ditch it. What are you waiting for?
The Scrivenato sometimes known as Mr X.
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Ji
JimRac
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Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:09 pm Post

xiamenese wrote:
Scribhneoir wrote:
KB wrote:
[list]
[*]The Windows version is hugely overdue and this is hurting the faith our users have in us. And yet it’s an impossible situation. I don’t want to go into internal matters, but there is no way of throwing money at it that will fix this. The Windows update *will* be released, I hasten to add, but we need seriously to evaluate how to avoid this situation in the future.


Why should Windows users believe you? And if you do really release it, how many more years will it be?

Last August Lee said "a few more weeks, not months." The one year anniversary of this whopper is less than two weeks away. It looks to me like finishing this upgrade is way beyond the abilities of the Windows developers.

I almost wish you would go to a subscription model. That would make it easy for me to totally ditch Scrivener.

So just ditch it. What are you waiting for?
My guess is they're waiting for something to be created that currently does not exist: another Windows app with features and price equivalent to even Windows Scrivener v1. :mrgreen:
I’m just a customer.

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devinganger
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Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:27 pm Post

Scribhneoir wrote:Why should Windows users believe you?


For the same reason that we should believe you when you keep saying you want to ditch Scrivener and yet *you're still here.*
--
Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

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Silverdragon
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Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:06 am Post

Oh dear. I wondered when the Windows fracas would start...

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AussieDoc
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Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:49 am Post

Ooo, Windows stoush.

Most immature of me but... :D

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Windows 10 Pro
Bought Scrivener 1.9.16.0 but loving 2.9.9.11 Beta (1078037)
And I will write 500 words
And I will write 500 more...
:D

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:15 pm Post

Scribhneoir wrote:
I almost wish you would go to a subscription model. That would make it easy for me to totally ditch Scrivener.


Oh dear, another ‘gonna take my bat and ball and go home and sulk/hold my breath until I turn blue/lie on the floor and kick and scream until I get my way...’

You’re number ... with that threat, totally over it

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:48 pm Post

Scribhneoir wrote:
KB wrote:
[list]
[*]The Windows version is hugely overdue and this is hurting the faith our users have in us. And yet it’s an impossible situation. I don’t want to go into internal matters, but there is no way of throwing money at it that will fix this. The Windows update *will* be released, I hasten to add, but we need seriously to evaluate how to avoid this situation in the future.


Why should Windows users believe you? And if you do really release it, how many more years will it be?

Last August Lee said "a few more weeks, not months." The one year anniversary of this whopper is less than two weeks away. It looks to me like finishing this upgrade is way beyond the abilities of the Windows developers.

I almost wish you would go to a subscription model. That would make it easy for me to totally ditch Scrivener.


The owner of the company has come out and and admitted they screwed up, taken responsibility and said they will work to ensure this does happen again.

Your response - act like an arrogant a... and heap more sh.t. The comparison says all.

En
EndlessLoop
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Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:12 pm Post

KB wrote:But suppose this simpler version had iCloud support and could sync as seamlessly as other iCloud apps


Chiming in, I'm the exact opposite. I really dislike iCloud (or other) syncing for writing projects. Not for the data security aspect in relation to hacking, but just the friction and possibility for damage that can and does happen. I'm all for syncing simple stuff that I actively want to sync and have available on lots of devices (eg via Google Keep), but when it comes to things that brew over a long period of time, I actually want them ring-fenced from the cloud except for periodic backups. I'm pretty sure that was the intention, but just adding in my bit to say that if there is a Scrivener Lite one day I very much hope Scrivener Heavy will still be a priority.

sc
scshrugged
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Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:42 pm Post

KB wrote:While of course there are still many kinds of users and a generalisation doesn't cover them all, it does seem to me that more and more users expect simplicity and fewer know their way around the computers they use every day - or at least have different expectations of them. (An ongoing issue for our support staff, for instance, is the "Save As" feature - many users are confused about how this works, and it leads them into difficulties. This is slightly baffling to someone like me, who learned how to use computers in the 90s and learned or was taught features like this first. I'm not blaming users, I hasten to add - but it does show how expectations have changed.)

All the best,
Keith


Could revision to documentation/videos diminish simplicity concerns? I think the current documentation is excellent but could be improved by front-loading The Basics info (using text and images)––info such as "Save", "Auto-Save", "Save As", "Backing Up", "using Recents", etc.
I'm a Scrivener user, not an L&L employee.

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lunk
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Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:11 pm Post

People have learnt from smart phones that they don’t need to understand anything. Most iOS and Android apps are fool proof. You can’t make fatal misstakes. When a Mac or PC is treated the same way things can go very wrong.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

An
AndrewHarvey
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Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:27 am Post

Hi Keith, and others.

Window user here. Started with 1.6 (I think) and moved across to the Beta with 9 (I think).

I hate subscriptions although I am now using a hell of a lot of them. As I also run a publishing house and 2 personal computers Adobe and Microsoft have locked me into their ecosystem. Luckily I can afford but that doesn't mean I like it.

I started with the Microbee CPM desktop, and had an internal network in the home years before anyone at work started doing the same.

I haven't spent a lot of time learning Scriveners rather unique layout. I much prefer to just write, and drag chapters around in the corkboard. A year ago I was still drafting a chapter in Word and copying/pasting it into Scrivener because I could just work on it in dropbox on any of my computers, or multiple android tablets. I'm now comfortable on editing the RTF file using OfficeSuite (one of the few Android RTF editors) and manually synching the file. I am SO waiting for the android version to become available.

I also run separate projects for my multiple trilogies, and more importantly a separate project(s) for research information. I have a number of large maps/photos in research and saving them in a project was taking too much time.

I'm happy(ish) with the progress on the Windows Release Candidate, but frustrated that I can't give you some money for it - although if I get frustrated enough I guess I could just buy another copy. Hague Publishing has just acquired an intern so perhaps I could donate it to her.

All the best in your deliberations.
Writer and Publisher of SF & Fantasy
Platforms: Windows and Android
http://www.haguepublishing.com
http://www.andrewjharvey.com

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nontroppo
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Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:18 pm Post

Thanks to everyone who gave their thought, and KB for sharing his decision space! The only option for potential simplification I haven't seen mentioned is to step away from RTF and embrace plain text (visually styled in the editor). Apple's text frameworks are not being updated as far as I can tell in macOS releases (as they keep their proprietary engine for Pages), but KB has invested a lot of effort in extending features and working round its bugs, so I understand it would be a big step to take. My feeling is that it would reduce a lot of complexity (compilation would rely more on other established tools thus saving more developer weight), but only KB really knows that for sure...

On the iCloud front, if that was the major factor to prompt redevelopment, I would argue against. I have the both the 2TB iCloud plan and Dropbox premium. There is no comparison IMO in terms of reliability. Some apps (Bookends) work well syncing their database via iCloud, but then things like PDFs (simply stored as files in an iCloud folder) or larger documents get stuck, don't sync and are generally a pain (not every file, but sometimes it feels like 1 in 10 which is far too much). Dropbox syncs *everything* always, I have never had a sync failure in the many years I have used it — say what you will but technically it is utterly reliable. This is even in China, where Dropbox is forced to work through a VPN but iCloud servers connect without issue.

Back to subscriptions: iAWriter developer blogpost on their thought processes on subscriptions, for Android they are thinking about offering both models — https://ia.net/topics/subscription-or-no-subscription

We tried different things before. We tried high prices, mid-range prices, low prices, free, and freemium. Getting Android users to pay for software is not for the feeble-hearted. So far, offering a free basic version with a choice between paid and subscription seems to be the only thing that works. And that doesn’t mean we buy yachts, it means that we might be sustainable in one or two years.

The share of customers that decide to either buy or subscribe is at 50/50. Note: The subscription (USD 5.-) is substantially cheaper than buying the app (USD 30.-). In other words, we make substantially more via paid apps.

Mo
MojoSSMA
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Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:05 pm Post

kewms wrote:Since we are not a public company, it's not clear where your supposed insight into our finances might be coming from.

Thank you for your concern, but we are fine. Hiring more people, in fact.

I think Keith has previously expressed his lack of interest in the subscription model.

Katherine


Thank you for this! I went with Scrivener BECAUSE IT WASN'T a subscription based product. I prefer the "Like it, buy it, done" model over this ever-increasing model of "keep buying the same product over and over again" model.

My opinion? Major build upgrade, charge for it. Minor improvements on the same build? Update it for free.

Subscriptions are for magazines, not software.

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devinganger
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Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:11 pm Post

There are other models as well that mix the two extremes. One piece of software I have used (in the ham radio world) uses a model I'm somewhat fond of -- you purchase the software outright, which also gives you 12 months of *feature* upgrades and support. After your 12 months is passed, you can still download new updates, and you will receive the benefits of any bug-fixes that apply, but you will not be able to access new features (support for new radios, new modules and modes, etc.) unless you purchase a (smaller price) update, which resets your 12-month clock. So you can go for years getting free bugfixes if you have everything set up the way you like it, but if you decide you need a new feature, you pay for the update and get it.

It's probably a lot more chaos to track on the software side of things -- they're Windows only and don't go through an app store which helps reduce the complexity -- but it's a neat idea.
--
Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

Um
Umina
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Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:37 pm Post

Hi Devin, W7CCE in Gilbert here.

I have the same contesting software. The difference is that you can go a long time - years - with the same software if you don't need the extra features, and as you know a bunch of competitors pop up at every delay. On year I bought a new radio, the software didn't exist, so I wrote my own. It was surprisingly easy but that was my job in those days.

So my vote would be continue present course. Once Version 3 is fully out and debugged on Windows and Apple there will be some time to think about this. My caution is that the schemes to wring every ounce of available funds from the user base have killed more companies than a COVID lockdown. The returns are often marginal, overhead grows, customer service expands, and it de-focuses the designers.

You may want to consider moving to the USA, but it sounds like you are doing just fine, and anything to slow or interfere with productivity should be avoided like the plague until move ahead a bit. Then you have to find a city that's not burning, and learn how to shoot! Seriously I have one question, and that is are there many bugs appearing in the Windows 3.0 version that are found to exist in the Apple version too, or are they pretty much a consequence of the new code/environment?

On this end I dual boot a Mac so I hear "scaling" for Windows and start to sob. Regardless good luck to LL on this project. PS If you do need $$ you might consider asking for contributions. That can work.

/Len