Scrivener Support for Reference Managers (Zotero, Endnote, Mendeley, etc)

Should Scrivener be updated to support reference Managers?

Yes, with urgency
0
No votes
Yes, but only after more urgent updates
0
No votes
Unsure or indifferent
0
No votes
No, Scrivener is fine as it is
0
No votes
No, Scrivener should not implement this specific update
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 0
lc
lcaunt@gmail.com
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:40 am
Platform: Mac

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:06 am Post

Scrivener is great for a diversity of writers--but not those who need to regularly cite other works (i.e most report writers, most consultants, most advisers, most bureaucrats, all academics, all students, etc). Reference managers like Zotero (especially) but also Mendeley and Endnote are brilliant for any writer--in much the same way that Scrivener is brilliant for nearly any writer.

Is there a reason why Scrivener 3.0 does not support in-application processing or compiling for these reference managers? Doing so would broaden the market for Scrivener significantly, and given the multiplicity of workarounds users have applied (including me), there seem to be an abundance of durable enough solutions. It seems like there must be a sound reason for not supporting reference managers, but this is reason is elusive & not provided by Literature & Latte. The workaround using python, Pandoc, Marked2, TextWrangler & often a variety of of other external applications is more work than many users would wish to undertake.

If there is a sound reason for not supporting in-application integration/compiling with one or more reference managers, is it possible for Scrivener to at least notify their users via a FAQ or other mechanism as to why there is no such support? At most, is it possible for Scrivener to undertake such an update? It seems that a great many users have to decide whether or not they are willing (or able) to undertake a fairly complex process to code in manually a workaround between Scrivener and a reference manager.

User avatar
devinganger
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Monroe, WA 98272
Contact:

Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:00 am Post

There have been multiple discussions about reference managers and their interaction with Scrivener on the forums. The forums include a search function.
--
Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 4489
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:32 am Post

lcaunt@gmail.com wrote:Reference managers like Zotero (especially) but also Mendeley and Endnote are brilliant for any writer--

Not all writers would agree that Zotero is brilliant. Furthermore, there are many more really good reference managers, Bookends and Papers 3 to mention two, and Scrivener is better off not making a choice.
If you don’t understand why, do the forum search suggested by Devinganger.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

mb
mbbntu
Posts: 1336
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:44 am
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Cambridge, UK.

Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:53 am Post

lcaunt@gmail.com wrote:Scrivener is great for a diversity of writers--but not those who need to regularly cite other works (i.e most report writers, most consultants, most advisers, most bureaucrats, all academics, all students, etc). Reference managers like Zotero (especially) but also Mendeley and Endnote are brilliant for any writer--in much the same way that Scrivener is brilliant for nearly any writer.

Speaking as a (retired) academic who has written long pieces using Scrivener in combination with a bibliographic manager (Bookends, in my case) I find it intensely irritating to be told that the software I have been using for years is no good for what I am doing, and to be included, against my will, in a group that apparently has an opinion I do not agree with. Parading one's own opinions as fact and co-opting the "views" of a large group of people who have not been consulted to support one's own point of view is an old rhetorical trick, and not a very good one. It severely undermines your case. I keep on saying that wherever I go on wishlist forums I come across the False Consensus Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect), and it seems I will be doomed to keep on saying it for ever. This is yet another case.

Scrivener already supports reference managers. I should know, I use them. Case closed.
You should judge people not by how close they get to the top, but by how far they have come from the bottom. Some people have a mountain to climb just to get to the place where others start out. (Me, 2010)

User avatar
nontroppo
Posts: 1330
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac
Location: Airstrip One

Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:01 pm Post

Scrivener already supports interacting with leading reference managers just fine (Prefs > General > Citations). Your question is not well posed. What I think you mean, is why can't Scrivener turn citations into a final formatted document upon compile without any other tools like Pandoc (which does this perfectly)? If so, then it is because it is a complex task that is simply not feasible for Keith to maintain alone.

But there are two potential solutions.

One requires Scrivener making some sort of plugin interface that would do the formatting during compile. Then each reference manager would need to write a plugin to do the formatting. I think this is very unlikely to happen (see the forum post on scripting support).

The second solution is to include a citeproc engine that will do the hard work in terms of handling an intermediate database, and the formatting for thousands of different journals). I have a wishlist post open for this, but at present there is no suitable citeproc engine that integrates well into Cocoa based apps like Scrivener. One is in development however a timeframe is unavailable. If a citeproc engine was included, a user would manually specify a BIB file and a CSL (style file), and citeproc would be called during compile, in theory supporting any output that Scrivener does.

If you mean you want something like Endnote's CWYW, then this would require a very advanced scripting engine built-in to the editor itself (extremely unlikely), and would be opposed by many users like me who think it is a buggy hell of a stupid idea in the first place.

pk
pkshank
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:27 am
Platform: Mac

Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:44 pm Post

So how do you go about creating a finished mss using Endnote?

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 7603
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:22 pm Post

Please note that polls are discouraged in Wish List posts. While we listen to user requests, Scrivener development is not a democracy.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 7603
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:25 pm Post

pkshank wrote:So how do you go about creating a finished mss using Endnote?


See Section 20.4 in the (Mac) Scrivener 3 manual. Briefly, you use Endnote to create placeholder citations and compile to RTF as normal. Then you consult Endnote's documentation to learn how to convert those placeholders into correct citations in the format you want.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Am
Amcmo

Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:29 pm Post

kewms wrote:Please note that polls are discouraged in Wish List posts. While we listen to user requests, Scrivener development is not a democracy.

Katherine

So a ‘benevolent dictatorship’? I’m fine with that. ;)

kd
kdomino
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:42 pm
Platform: Mac

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:52 pm Post

Absolutely.

Scrivener should support especially the open source reference manager Zotero.

Why? I have used Scr for my doctoral dissertation. It was OK having to copy-paste footnotes after generating them in Word...but then, the citations did not update as I updated or corrected some details of the references used.

Since then, I have not written in Scr. I returned to Word only because it makes it much easier to cite...no single other feature or reason, just that...and this the story of most academics and students and others whose line of work requires referring to multiple sources and works etc

Please, please, please, have scrivener support this feature. It is simply indispensable for us.

Thank you,

User avatar
rdale
Posts: 2174
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:07 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: St. Louis, MO
Contact:

Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:57 pm Post

A cursory google search shows that Scrivener does support Zotero, and there are top-ranked videos explaining how.
FKA: robertdguthrie
AKA: R Dale Guthrie, Robert, Mr. Obscure, and "Oh, it's you again".

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 4489
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:08 pm Post

kdomino wrote:Please, please, please, have scrivener support this feature. It is simply indispensable for us.

Us? As in Your Highness? Or as in United States?
Whichever it is, saying "please, please, please" seems to contradict both alternatives...
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

User avatar
magnoliasouth
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:16 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:06 pm Post

I am really very disappointed in so many comments in this thread. The point of forums are for discussion, not cut-downs. The end meaning here is that the user wants to use some bibliographic software in combination with Scrivener and with these kinds of responses, you may have just driven a customer away from Literature and Latte.

I have trouble using Zotero, myself and that is how I landed here. Not one comment is helpful. Ironically, this is the first topic in the search that I decided to read. Not a great first impression at all.

Taking offense so easily and replying with sarcasm or nit-picking about "us" is completely uncalled for and unnecessary.

User avatar
rdale
Posts: 2174
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:07 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: St. Louis, MO
Contact:

Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:24 pm Post

magnoliasouth wrote:I am really very disappointed in so many comments in this thread. The point of forums are for discussion, not cut-downs. The end meaning here is that the user wants to use some bibliographic software in combination with Scrivener and with these kinds of responses, you may have just driven a customer away from Literature and Latte.

I have trouble using Zotero, myself and that is how I landed here. Not one comment is helpful. Ironically, this is the first topic in the search that I decided to read. Not a great first impression at all.

Taking offense so easily and replying with sarcasm or nit-picking about "us" is completely uncalled for and unnecessary.


Not one? Not even the one pointing you to the manual page on how to use placeholder citations with Endnote?

kewms wrote:
pkshank wrote:So how do you go about creating a finished mss using Endnote?


See Section 20.4 in the (Mac) Scrivener 3 manual. Briefly, you use Endnote to create placeholder citations and compile to RTF as normal. Then you consult Endnote's documentation to learn how to convert those placeholders into correct citations in the format you want.

Katherine
FKA: robertdguthrie
AKA: R Dale Guthrie, Robert, Mr. Obscure, and "Oh, it's you again".

User avatar
magnoliasouth
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:16 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:40 pm Post

rdale wrote:
magnoliasouth wrote: Not one comment is helpful.

Not one? Not even the one pointing you to the manual page on how to use placeholder citations with Endnote?

Sadly, no. I cannot afford EndNote, hence my use of Zotero. I fully understand that it may be worth the purchase, but when you don't have the money, you simply don't have the money.

I have been using Scrivener for years and I did read the manual (though I don't use Mac, so Scrivener 3 is out). I do understand Scrivener's use for footers and end notes but it's just the time it takes. My point was that at present there is no integration, nor plugin that will continue to update links to citations, numbering and so on, unless I have missed something, which is why I was here, That said, sometimes automation is a bad thing and creates errors and I am a stickler for accuracy. It may work out for the best, in the end.

Thank you though for responding and attempting to remedy the situation. One day it will all come together and hope is always a good thing.