Scrivener for iOS - When?

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Silverdragon
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Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:13 pm Post

stuartg wrote:A word of caution for anyone considering using Scrivo. I've paid for several versions of Textilus to use with Scrivener. I've now given up on this app and developer in frustration. The app has been 'reinvented' a couple of times and always fallen short of expectations for me. It never quite lives up to its billing.

Maybe they'll get things right with Scrivo? I'm not holding my breath.

Let me add my voice to this chorus. Now that it has become clear that the folks doing Scrivo and the folks doing Textilus are the same folks despite different company names :roll: , I have zero confidence in their ability to get this right. This is why I am using plain text tools on my iPad until iScrivener arrives.
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Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:24 pm Post

Rusty75 wrote:In all fairness, the software "we don't talk about" pre-dates Scrivener... :D


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KB
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Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:27 pm Post

Rusty75 wrote:
matsgz wrote:
Rusty75 wrote:Suspend disbelief, if only for a moment. It's called xxxxx. Works with Scrivener, as I said.


The software in question was from the beginning a shameless rip-off of Scrivener. If it is the case that the Scrivener team doesn't want it plugged on their web site (I don't say it is so), I wouldn't blame them.

In all fairness, the software "we don't talk about" pre-dates Scrivener, and I am sure both were influenced by organizational long form writing software that came before either. :D


No, it does not pre-date Scrivener, that is completely wrong but seems to be a misconception that has been pushed from certain sources. Both apps were released in January 2007 (Scrivener first), but Scrivener was in public beta for well over a year before that (what became Scrivener Gold went into public beta in November 2005). All this is easily checked using online archives and such if you don't believe me (several users on this forum first started using Scrivener back then, from before L&L even had a website and everything was done via free forum software). The corkboard and certain other features didn't appear in that other app until 2008 or 2009. I've never made a secret of software that has influenced Scrivener, such as previous versions of Ulysses, and when I was coding Scrivener, I wrote to the developers of Ulysses, Jer's Novel Software and others to introduce myself and let them know that I was releasing software that had some similar features but which was very different (I'm on good terms with most of our competitors). Software evolves and builds on what has come before, and I have nothing against people being influenced by Scrivener's features and doing something *new* with them; it would be great for Scrivener to be influential in that way. So when I say that we do not like to promote certain software for "historical reasons", it's not just because we're competing in the same space. It would be unprofessional for me to air my grievances in public, though, so I just politely request that we do not continue the conversation about competitor software in this thread.
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Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:29 pm Post

redeclipse wrote:Hey KB, just wanted to let you know that while I am very eager to get my hands on the iOS app, I understand and appreciate how much hard work it is taking to get it there. Thank you for keeping us updated on things, looking forward to what you've been making!


Thank you!

Sparrowhawk wrote:Sadly, this seems to be a very big problem is iOS apps (finding an outside developer who actually sees a project through that is). My company (that I'm a peon for, not the founder), has gone through about 5 contract developers in 3 years for our mobile app. Going down a rabbit trail here...I've often wondered why. It seems getting people to actually finish a desktop program they begin isn't nearly as rare. Since programming is programming (yes, I know there are different languages) and should theoretically draw people with similar skill sets, I can only think of two possible reasons this is so much more difficult:...


My feeling - and this is pure speculation based on my experience of working with some developers - is that many iOS developers who are interested in third-party work (who aren't too busy with their own projects or in full-time employment) have only worked on small, simple apps in the past (the iOS App Store is full of such apps). Some have probably come over to iOS from web development, too. They then hire themselves out and can create some graphically-nice stuff that allows you to browse a restaurant menu or such, but they haven't really got deep experience with building a big app that needs to sync complex data, or with how to make the most of the iOS frameworks. Part of the skill of developing software is to recognise where UI elements are provided by Apple and where you need to build custom components, and what elements to use as the basis for custom controls, but the developers I worked with - even from the agency - wasted a lot of time custom-building elements that were already available, as though they didn't know how to work with Apple's documentation or frameworks. At any rate, after spending my days constantly telling the agency developers to rewrite code the way it should be written, I decided not to risk trying to find another developer. (I will still need another developer to help me at some point... Which reminds me that I was in contact with a promising developer and never got back to him, whoops...)
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Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:46 pm Post

Silverdragon wrote:
stuartg wrote:A word of caution for anyone considering using Scrivo. I've paid for several versions of Textilus to use with Scrivener. I've now given up on this app and developer in frustration. The app has been 'reinvented' a couple of times and always fallen short of expectations for me. It never quite lives up to its billing.

Maybe they'll get things right with Scrivo? I'm not holding my breath.

Let me add my voice to this chorus. Now that it has become clear that the folks doing Scrivo and the folks doing Textilus are the same folks despite different company names :roll: , I have zero confidence in their ability to get this right. This is why I am using plain text tools on my iPad until iScrivener arrives.

I always had bad luck with Textilus too. PlainText is the one I favored for syncs.

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Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:03 pm Post

KB wrote:They then hire themselves out and can create some graphically-nice stuff that allows you to browse a restaurant menu or such, but they haven't really got deep experience with building a big app that needs to sync complex data, or with how to make the most of the iOS frameworks. Part of the skill of developing software is to recognise where UI elements are provided by Apple and where you need to build custom components, and what elements to use as the basis for custom controls, but the developers I worked with - even from the agency - wasted a lot of time custom-building elements that were already available, as though they didn't know how to work with Apple's documentation or frameworks.


I think in some ways it's like the difference between a blog post and a novel. A novel -- or a big software application -- isn't just more words, it's orders of magnitude more complexity. And until you've done it, it's easy to delude yourself into thinking it's easier than it actually is.

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Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:23 pm Post

KB wrote:My feeling - and this is pure speculation based on my experience of working with some developers - is that many iOS developers who are interested in third-party work (who aren't too busy with their own projects or in full-time employment) have only worked on small, simple apps in the past (the iOS App Store is full of such apps). Some have probably come over to iOS from web development, too. They then hire themselves out and can create some graphically-nice stuff that allows you to browse a restaurant menu or such, but they haven't really got deep experience with building a big app that needs to sync complex data, or with how to make the most of the iOS frameworks. Part of the skill of developing software is to recognise where UI elements are provided by Apple and where you need to build custom components, and what elements to use as the basis for custom controls, but the developers I worked with - even from the agency - wasted a lot of time custom-building elements that were already available, as though they didn't know how to work with Apple's documentation or frameworks. At any rate, after spending my days constantly telling the agency developers to rewrite code the way it should be written, I decided not to risk trying to find another developer. (I will still need another developer to help me at some point... Which reminds me that I was in contact with a promising developer and never got back to him, whoops...)


I am retired from the software business, and the last time I developed for Mac was OS 9, but for this opportunity alone I wish I were current on the present systems... *sighs*
So you know where I'm coming from:
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  • Mac Scrivener 3.1.2, MacBook Air 11, MacOS 10.14.5 (Mojave)
  • IOS Scrivener 1.1.5; iPhone 8 Plus, iPad 6th gen, iOS 12.3.1

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Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:09 am Post

KB wrote:
ChrisRosser wrote:If that's true then that's NOT COOL AT ALL and I hope that's an oversight and not censorship.


My sincere apologies for any offence caused here.


Thanks Keith for clarifying your position. I know most of your response was directed at Rusty74 but since you quoted my remark it's only right that I give you a thumbs up too what was an honest and heartfelt series of responses.

I wasn't offended, I guess I was just alarmed by the direction. There's a lot of vitriol on this thread (some of it is borderline trolling IMHO) and my first reaction was that censoring posts was not the way to win hearts and minds. You are, of course, absolutely right to delete posts that break your rules, especially given that you have a spot for discussions of other software. I can see by your replies that censorship was not your intent - phew!

This thread did give me pause to look at Storyist out of curiosity and ironically I wouldn't have bothered if Rusty's post hadn't been deleted. I haven't tried it yet, just visited their website. From the outset, I can't say I'd trust a non-blessed app whose devs have reverse engineered your file format. I've also tried Ulyses but even as a fan of plain text formats, something about it left me cold and the price they ask for a glorified, locked down, not-quite-open markdown editor quite frankly takes the pi$$. Scrivener on OS X is still the finished piece of writing software I've used in more than 30 years writing on silicon.

Anyway, like many, I've got a lot of hope for the iOS version of Scrivner, because after an impulse purchase of an iPad mini iOS has become my computing platform of choice away from my house (and often in it) because my computer is a fixed desktop. As good as OS X is, Apple hasn't created a device running it that gives me the ability to work while standing in a crowded train to/from work or on a desk with a keyboard and everything in between. I don't want another mac laptop - been there, done that; paying north of $2000AUD for a disposable, single-port rMacbook with a glued enclosure and soldered internals as a secondary device has zero appeal when I got my iPad for less than a quarter of that price. Given that I used to use a Palm pilot with a folding keyboard; the 8inch mini with its retina display is a luxury portable typewriter!

Accordingly, mobile-first has become more important to me. If Scrivener for iOS can preserve my project's structure between transfers, let me do light restructing and draft in full screen mode then I will be happy indeed. But I'm not going to sabre-rattle and threaten to take my business elsewhere. I've been a happy customer since 2007 and since then every release you've shipped for OS X has been outstanding.

So I'll wait; release Scrivener for iOS when you are good and ready! :D
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Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:11 pm Post

Hi Chris,

ChrisRosser wrote:I wasn't offended, I guess I was just alarmed by the direction. There's a lot of vitriol on this thread (some of it is borderline trolling IMHO) and my first reaction was that censoring posts was not the way to win hearts and minds. You are, of course, absolutely right to delete posts that break your rules, especially given that you have a spot for discussions of other software. I can see by your replies that censorship was not your intent - phew!


Indeed, I think was a little overzealous because of past issues in this thread. Generally our deletions are quite rare. (This has reminded me that I need to post the forum rules properly at the top of the forum somewhere easy to find.)

ChrisRosser wrote:I've also tried Ulyses but even as a fan of plain text formats, something about it left me cold and the price they ask for a glorified, locked down, not-quite-open markdown editor quite frankly takes the pi$$.


I actually think that Ulysses is a wonderful piece of software, created by a couple of guys who are passionate about and true to their vision. That vision never fit the way I write, as I like outlines and rich text (I tried it when I was looking for writing software, when I first had the idea of Scrivener and set out to see if there was anything that already did what I wanted; Ulysses came close, although it was very different back then - they stripped out a lot and rebuilt a very different app for their version 3). It is nice to see one of the innovators of our niche doing so well with their recent versions, though (even if I'd prefer people used Scrivener, ha).

ChrisRosser wrote:Scrivener on OS X is still the finished piece of writing software I've used in more than 30 years writing on silicon.


Great to hear!

ChrisRosser wrote:Accordingly, mobile-first has become more important to me. If Scrivener for iOS can preserve my project's structure between transfers, let me do light restructing and draft in full screen mode then I will be happy indeed.


That's exactly what it will be able to do - full rich text editing with project restructuring via the drill-down binder and corkboard. I'm not a big user of iPads (although I admit that I like my iPad Pro more than I thought I would with its smart keyboard), but I always have my phone with me, and having Scrivener on that is going to be great. (Actually, I already have Scrivener on my iPhone, but I need to do a bit more work to the sync code before I can use it as I want... ;) )

All the best,
Keith
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Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:48 pm Post

On posting rules at the top I doubt that will have much effect. Other online communities, such as NaNoWriMo, have sticky threads at the head of each of their forums. Enthusiastic posters never bother to read them and then bitch when their thread is closed as a duplicate or contrary to the rules.

I for one would prefer that you spend those few minutes on coding up Scrivener v3 for Mac and Scrivener v1 for iOS.
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Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:24 am Post

KB wrote:That's exactly what it will be able to do - full rich text editing with project restructuring via the drill-down binder and corkboard. I'm not a big user of iPads (although I admit that I like my iPad Pro more than I thought I would with its smart keyboard), but I always have my phone with me, and having Scrivener on that is going to be great. (Actually, I already have Scrivener on my iPhone, but I need to do a bit more work to the sync code before I can use it as I want... ;) )


Perfect! I've got Scrivener on my Mac mini as the 'kitchen sink'; the iPad meanwhile is my task-specific portable device and the iOS version by your description sounds exactly what I'm looking to slot into my writing workflow.
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Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:40 am Post

KB wrote:
I actually think that Ulysses is a wonderful piece of software, created by a couple of guys who are passionate about and true to their vision. That vision never fit the way I write, as I like outlines and rich text (I tried it when I was looking for writing software, when I first had the idea of Scrivener and set out to see if there was anything that already did what I wanted; Ulysses came close, although it was very different back then - they stripped out a lot and rebuilt a very different app for their version 3). It is nice to see one of the innovators of our niche doing so well with their recent versions, though (even if I'd prefer people used Scrivener, ha).


I was harder on Ulysses than I intended to be. It is a good product I agree but I don't think its for me because I love outlining. Besides, if I'm going to write in Markdown, I'll use MultiMarkdown Composer on OS X and Editorial on the iPad, both of which I really like.

Funnily enough, I prefer plain text and use it daily for my job as a technical writer. I've also used markdown in a text editor for a couple of projects that were very linear and when I was forced to do most of my writing outside of Scrivener.

That said, I'm starting to come full circle, at least for fiction and have gone back to rich text. Partly because it's better with Scrivener but also because it creates a visual separation from my day job as odd as that sounds. I also came to the realisation that I honestly don't need to grep, regex and diff the hell out of fiction copy anyway and Rich Text is almost as portable as plain text.
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Gordon Robb
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Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:38 pm Post

Having not checked in for a while I have just read a half dozen pages of updates. I have a couple of questions...

I see some discussion of Scrivio - can anyone tell me, am I right in assuming that the 'sync with Scrivener' that people are discussing is with the Mac version only?

Also, for KB, is there any possibility that in the interim, we could have a version for Windows that allows the same kind of Sync feature that Mac has. This would at least allow us windows users to use some of the same work-arounds others manage to use.

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Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:15 am Post

To add another question---will the ios version have snapshots? That is probably the feature I most miss when using Byword on my iPad.

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Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:45 pm Post

MikeThicke wrote:To add another question---will the ios version have snapshots? That is probably the feature I most miss when using Byword on my iPad.


I'm afraid not, no - the iOS version will not have a snapshots feature and there are as yet no plans to add one. It's a bit out of scope for the iOS version.

All the best,
Keith
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