1.1.0.4 Beta RELEASED

bf
bfmcmanus
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:58 pm Post

On February 5, I posted a bug for 1.0.0 (endnotes lose spaces when compiled):

"In Scrivener for Windows 1.0.0, when I compile Endnotes into Word, spaces are lost. This seems to occur primarily before and after a word or words in italics. Here's an example:
Patricia Ann Palmieri,In Adamless Eden: The Community of Women Faculty at Wellesley(New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press, 1995), xix.
I have checked the inline footnotes in Scrivener, and the entries are typed with the correct spacing. I have also noticed that the note number appears in italics if the note text begins with an italicized word."

I have looked at the list of bugfixes in 1.0.3 and also in this new beta, but I do not see this listed. Has this been fixed or will it be dealt with soon?

I am finding Scrivener very helpful in the biography I am writing and would like to recommend it to the members of my writing group, but I was hoping to see this bug fixed before doing so. Thanks, Barbara

gw
gwsk5597
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:29 pm Post

Well, I installed it. I noticed right away that the lock icon in the lower right corner has gone missing. The button's still there, but there's no icon.

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StaceyUK
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:11 pm Post

gwsk5597 wrote:Well, I installed it. I noticed right away that the lock icon in the lower right corner has gone missing. The button's still there, but there's no icon.


I can confirm this.
Blessings, Stacey

System Specs

Windows 7
Scrivener 1.9.7 / 2.8 /3.0.3/1.1.5 (1301)
Scapple 1.0.0.0
Windows 2.9.0.26 Beta

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narrsd
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:29 pm Post

Just to say, on the first moments from install:

- Snappy. That's a first impression.
- Getting Elegant. That's an impression after looking at the new Preferences, and one or two other dialogs.
- No Licence Problems with 1.03 - that's my experience so far, on Windows 7 Professional SP1 or whatever it is, all up-to-date. I get no messages about expired or unlicensed software on 1.03. 1.1 gives the expected warning message.

That is all. Looks like a lot of great work, Lee and team. Will be fun to explore.

Regards,
Clive
Last edited by narrsd on Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LAP
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:52 pm Post

bfmcmanus wrote:On February 5, I posted a bug for 1.0.0 (endnotes lose spaces when compiled):
...
I have looked at the list of bugfixes in 1.0.3 and also in this new beta, but I do not see this listed. Has this been fixed or will it be dealt with soon? ...


Hi Barbara, this bug was not looked at. I will do my best to see if this can't be addressed as part of the beta. I had logged it.

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LAP
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:52 pm Post

gwsk5597 wrote:Well, I installed it. I noticed right away that the lock icon in the lower right corner has gone missing. The button's still there, but there's no icon.


Thanks. I have logged this as a bug.

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LAP
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:23 pm Post

MrGruff wrote:May I direct you to here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17239 for a beginners guide to MMD with Scrivener?

It does focus on getting Latex outputs, but there is an awful lot about MMD itself.

The only caveat is that it is currently written Mac only, but I am planning to extend it to cover Windows (I've got as far as a Latex installation on my Parallels PC, so it is happening).

There is also the whole MMD forum.

(And for the when-is-Scrivener-for-Windows-going-to-catch-up-with-the-Mac-version crowd, this is one point where Scrivener for Windows has leap-frogged the Mac version which is still set on MMD2.)


Thanks for the reference, I had not seen this before, I will read this - thanks again Huw.
Lee

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Spitfire31
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:14 am Post

Steering away for a moment from MMD and similar esoterics, I posted a new thread yesterday, asking about the absence in Scrivener Win of some taken-for-granted (in the Mac environment) text engine features.

This is somehow a duplication of those questions, I guess, but since over 20 people have read my post and no one has commented, I wonder if I somehow committed a faute, bringing this up?

First and foremost, in the Mac environment, even in humble little Text Edit, if you double click a word and move it, or delete it, the text engine is smart enough to close the resulting gap with a single space character. Same thing with a pro word processor such as Nisus.

In Scrivener Win, I apparently have to delete one of the two remaining spaces manually.

Huh?

In the Mac environment, if I drag a word, or a group of words, selected by double clicking or shift clicking respectively, not only does the operation leave the correct number of space characters in the 'gap', but also adds spaces correctly in the destination, including proper handling of punctuation, etc.

Not so in the current version of Scrivener Win trial, as far as I've noticed on my Bootcamp Win 7 Pro 64 bit.

So, I'd really appreciate it if the developer would care to explain if this (to me abnormal) behaviour is somehow due to my system, of if 'it just works that way on Windows'.

Since I often drag words and groups of words around, having to do this manual housekeeping every time would really break the flow for me.

I have have no problem paying for a new Scrivener license for Windows, in addition to my Mac one. But if my fundamental writing habits can't be translated into the Scrivener Win environment, it would be a deal breaker for me.

Kind regards,

Joachim

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AmberV
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:23 am Post

This is something that is inconsistently handled on Windows, in my experience, so there is less of a precedent for having a unified way of handling it (not to mention a central toolkit for doing so). What you are referring to on the Mac is "smart copy/paste". This in fact, in many programs (including TextEdit), can be switched off (which is incidentally what I prefer, because I'd rather establish the boundaries of the selection terms myself when selecting and pasting text, software often gets what I meant to do wrong).

Here are some examples on Windows using some common Microsoft defaults:

  • OneNote 2010: you can't double-click or triple-click and drag in that program to make a selection. It's all Shift-clicking and single-click and span selection. Once you do have a selection, the drag and drop model is identical to Scrivener's. No software guesswork, no interpretation of what a "word" is, just take selection byte range 438 to 449 and insert it at byte 219. It's your responsibility to select the space after the word and insert appropriately.
  • WordPad: very close to Scrivener for the Mac with Smart Paste enabled with a few crucial differences. You can double/triple-click-drag to select, and doing so will guess word boundaries so that when you drag and drop text it doesn't require you to either make the correct selection initially or or do any maintenance afterwards. However its selection model makes the assumptions, rather than the copy/paste end. The selection is visually altered to include a space on the end of the word, which means if you perform your drag and drop incorrectly, the result can be not what you desired. So it takes literal approach during the actual drag and drop event, and defers the assumptions to selection.
  • Notepad: nothing to report. Double/triple-click-dragging is allowed, but not drag and drop. Being an editor designed for a wider variety of uses than prose, it also doesn't make WordPad's assumptions about what you meant to select. It will however select the final space after a word, so Ctrl-X/Ctrl-V requires less maintenance.
  • Word 2010: very similar to WordPad, as you might expect, and it should be noted that "Select entire word" is an option that can be disabled, much like Smart Copy/Paste can on the Mac. The main difference is that it does make a guess when you drop if you drop in the wrong spot. In WordPad if you drop to the left of the space (or the left-word outer boundary) then you end up with no space between the first word of the selection and the left-word of the target, and two spaces after the selection and the right-word of the drop. In Word however the drop is padded by assumption.

So if anything, the best model to follow would be one that handles the selection as precisely defined when dragging and dropping, and handling any assumptions (optionally!) at the selection end of the process, rather than the Mac which shows you a selection one way, but ends up silently doing something else when you actually take action on it. Subtle difference, save for the fact that you need to be precise when you drop. What this also means is that on Windows if you double-click a word, it most often has the trailing space selected as well, meaning you can't just double-click a word and replace it by typing without adding the space back again. Of course that final decision is up to Lee, but in my mind it makes more sense to copy Word (and other Office and Microsoft prose-handling applications) rather than the Mac, here. These are the sorts of things one gets used to, and switching between models can be frustrating. When going between platforms that is to be expected, but not between Outlook and Scrivener while you are working. So copy that, and have an option to go back to literal actions if desired.

But for right now anyway, you can make your selections literal in Scrivener and avoid post-paste maintenance. Simply make sure you drag far enough to the right or left to include the space after the word. Now when you drop (at the right-word boundary), everything is padded correctly and the source spot only has one space remaining. You need to use single-click-drag when extracting text next to punctuation marks, for this reason.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
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Spitfire31
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:47 am Post

Ioa,

Thank you for your, as usual, thorough and illuminating lecture!

The long and the short of my situation is that I just don't want to bother about bytes and spaces and whatnot when I try to translate my thoughts, as they might be, to 'paper'.

Once upon a time, before Scrivener, when I was messing with early betas of Jer's Novel Writer, I pestered Jerry with demands for 'smart copy/paste'. In the end, I got it and felt a great relief at finding a tool that suited my way of writing. No more fiddling with lost or extra spaces, no more need for precision dragging – just do what your intuition tells you.

I also use Nisus which works in the same way (without any preference available, I think) so in fact I didn't realise that there was a preference in Scrivener Mac for 'smart copy/paste'. Apparently, it's on by default and that is what suits me perfectly.

I realise that I may be an odd case, wanting to alternate between Scrivener on Mac and Windows. That said, I had expected basic functionality to be (at least optionally) identical between the two environments.

If that's not in the plans, no big deal – I'm just going to stick with Scrivener on Mac OS.

Thanks again!

Best,

Joachim

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LAP
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:55 am Post

It's an interesting thing which I had never noticed or used before with software on the Mac, Windows or Linux platforms.

I need to think about this when I have a little more time to investigate further. Bottom line is,it comes down to demand, time and the priority of features we implement first as we head towards Mac 2 functionality. Sure we could implement this type of functionality if a lot of Windows and Linux users desired. We have built the editing environment from the ground up, brick by brick, so we can do what we like; whereas on the Mac the TextEdit engine is more like a black box from my discussion with Keith - most of the functionality comes gift wrapped but has it's own problems and issues bending it to do things the Scrivener way.

I suggest sticking with the Mac platform for now if that's a more conducive writing environment for your style. I will take a look at this post beta. I'm not trying to fob you off. I just don't know when right now. Feel free to email in a few months: lee AT literatureandlatte DOT com.

Lee

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pigfender
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:20 am Post

For one, I'd be anti "smart dragging". It's really irritating when software thinks it is smarter than you and makes it harder to do anything that isn't what it thinks you probably want to do.

Precision dragging for me. Leave all that "we know better than you" nonsense to the Macs.
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Spitfire31
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:32 am Post

pigfender wrote:For one, I'd be anti "smart dragging". It's really irritating when software thinks it is smarter than you and makes it harder to do anything that isn't what it thinks you probably want to do.

Precision dragging for me. Leave all that "we know better than you" nonsense to the Macs.

Thank you for your constructive and well informed post.

I take it that you lack personal experience of what I am talking about.

It's about making routine operations easier and more transparent in the writing flow. I use this functionality every day since many years as a professional writer; I wouldn't, I can assure you, if it "makes it harder to do anything that isn't what it thinks you probably want to do".

Of course, 'smart copy/paste' should be an option, so that dyed-in-the-wool MS-DOS aficionados don't feel clueless.

Kind regards,

Joachim
Last edited by Spitfire31 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Spitfire31
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:38 am Post

LAP wrote:It's an interesting thing which I had never noticed or used before with software on the Mac, Windows or Linux platforms.
[snip]
I suggest sticking with the Mac platform for now if that's a more conducive writing environment for your style. I will take a look at this post beta. I'm not trying to fob you off. I just don't know when right now. Feel free to email in a few months: lee AT literatureandlatte DOT com.

Lee

Hi Lee,

Thank you for your considerate reply – it is appreciated.

Yes, I'll stick to the Mac environment but please be prepared for some nagging eventually. ;-) It's a good thing to be ambi-OS and in fact, though I've been on Macs for 24 years, I quite like Windows 7.

Kind regards,

Joachim

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pigfender
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:55 am Post

Spitfire31 wrote: Thank you for your constructive and well informed post.

You are welcome.

Spitfire31 wrote:I take it that you don't quite realise what I am talking about.

Because I disagreed with you?

Spitfire31 wrote:It's about making routine operations easier and more transparent in the writing flow. I use this functionality every day since many years as a professional writer; I wouldn't, I can assure you, if it "makes it harder to do anything that isn't what it thinks you probably want to do".

OMG are you are writer? Wow!

Look, we are all contributing to the discussion because we use the software. Like yourself, I spend a significant part of my professional life writing, reviewing and editing documents. My point was simply to point out that I personally prefer the "more power to the user" approach, because when you get used to it you get fast and accurate. Plus you have flexibility. All the smart copy and pace implimentations I've tried are imperfect. They have to make guesses about what spaces you want. They have to make decisions about punctuation, and not just at the end of sentences: brackets, quote marks and all manner of other elements as well. My own experience is that they get it wrong a lot of the time and I find being unable to select the text I want because the selection snaps to a pre-determined grid to be an irritiation. My personal opinion is that I'd rather make the choice myself. I just wanted that to be factored into the decision making process.
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