Collaboration

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kewms
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Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:43 pm Post

creactiv wrote:
I was only asking for a locking mechanism, telling me, someone is using the document in the first place, so i dont crash my mates work. Second i was asking for being able to add content to the document in a secluded area, given, that i cannot work on the document parts another person is working on. Lets say, mate 1 opened entire document and i am working on a new chapter, this would be merged, as soon as both of us close the software.


Have you tried the Scrivener 3 beta? Scrivener 3 accomplishes this with the Import and Merge feature: both collaborators work independently, then the owner of the "master" version merges changes back in.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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kewms
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Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:59 pm Post

JackSchaeffer wrote:Though this concept presented by Creactiv is not part of the current Scrivener "box", it hints at something that I think would be an awesome addition to Scrivener and open up the product to that group of writers who do NOT fit the current mold of lone-ranger writers working mostly in isolation with only temporary, scheduled sharing of projects.

If I understand the underlying structure of a Scrivener project, each "document" that makes up a whole book or finished piece is physically separate from every other "document." If there were a mechanism to "LOCK" a "document" checked out by a user (it could be viewed but not edited) then other users could likewise "LOCK" a "document" and edit that one at the same time.

At least conceptually this would not require a breaking of existing functionality. A new layer of access could be configured on top of what's there to do a simple check to see if the "document" is available for editing or not. I know I'm over-simplifying, but it's also not totally crazy.

However, where the wheels fall off is common storage. Where would you physically put the Scrivener project so multiple people could have access to it at the same time? We're back to cloud storage.


See my comments to Creactiv about Scrivener 3's Import and Merge feature.

As for cloud storage .... I store projects in the cloud all the time. So do many other people. That in itself is not an issue. Rather, the problem is managing access to the same project by multiple people at the same time. Among other obstacles, the individual documents are *not* truly independent in the way that, say, a folder full of Word files would be. They are related to each other by the Binder, and potentially by links and other metadata as well. Your hypothetical "lock" would therefore also need to protect the Binder structure, and so we're right back to only one person being able to access the project at a time.

In this context, it's worth mentioning that the leader in the simultaneous collaboration space, Google, is an enormous company with effectively unlimited resources, offering their product for free. The number two company, Microsoft, is also an enormous company with effectively unlimited resources. It's not at all clear that attempting to compete with those companies head-to-head is as smart a business decision as you seem to think.

At the same time, for all their resources, those companies *still* don't offer anything resembling Scrivener's tools for organizing large projects.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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kewms
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Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:01 pm Post

JackSchaeffer wrote:I'm not suggesting for a minute that KB should kotow to every wish of every person who ever got a whiff of Scrivener.


No, you're only suggesting that Scrivener is doomed unless he kowtows to *your* wish.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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devinganger
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Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:44 pm Post

JackSchaeffer wrote:These words illustrate exactly what I was saying - suggestions for improving the product, future-proofing it, expanding the market reach of it - these ideas are received with deep skepticism or rejected completely out-of-hand.


KB has far more access to *hard data* around how Scrivener sells, what the top support issues have been, etc. to inform his decision-making. Is he perfect? Nope. But he has demonstrated over the years that he is very thoughtful and *does* listen to well-presented feedback. Much of the back-and-forth that goes on here in the name of "suggestions" is not well-presented feedback.

At the end of the day, though, *it is his program.* Berating him is NOT going to get you the change you want. If you don't like it, find a new product. Nobody can make KB write code that he doesn't want to code. This is a key difference between a big business and a small business. It is a difference that is vital and I whole-heartedly support it.
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JackSchaeffer
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Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:43 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
KB has far more access to *hard data* around how Scrivener sells, what the top support issues have been, etc. to inform his decision-making. Is he perfect? Nope. But he has demonstrated over the years that he is very thoughtful and *does* listen to well-presented feedback. Much of the back-and-forth that goes on here in the name of "suggestions" is not well-presented feedback.

At the end of the day, though, *it is his program.* Berating him is NOT going to get you the change you want. If you don't like it, find a new product. Nobody can make KB write code that he doesn't want to code. This is a key difference between a big business and a small business. It is a difference that is vital and I whole-heartedly support it.


Once again, you go on the offensive to attack someone with a different POV. If you truly think I was "berating" KB (who I don't know and have never heard of until you invoked his name) then you are the one who turned it into a personal attack on the man. I did no such thing.

Your personal judgment of my feedback not being well-presented are meaningless, as they were never "presented" to anyone with decision making authority, were they?

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devinganger
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Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:02 pm Post

JackSchaeffer wrote:Once again, you go on the offensive to attack someone with a different POV


You have a fairly low threshold for what "the offensive" and an "attack" consist of, my friend. I assure you that you are reading far more heat into what I wrote than what I put there.
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Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

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JackSchaeffer
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Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:30 am Post

Devin,

I guess it's the cumulative effect of all my unfortunate interactions with you. But now that Version 3 is released and everyone is celebrating, I don't care anymore.

I'll leave you to have the last word.

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kewms
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Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:29 am Post

While I stand by my fundamental point, that people have been predicting the doom of Scrivener for fifteen years and it hasn't happened yet, the sarcasm was unnecessary and I apologize.

Best wishes for all success in your writing, whatever tools you choose.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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AnotherGuy
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Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:22 am Post

kewms wrote:...
Your hypothetical "lock" would therefore also need to protect the Binder structure, and so we're right back to only one person being able to access the project at a time.
...
Katherine


So, is it completely safe to keep a project in a shared DropBox folder as far as only one person is accessing it at a time? No filesystem related metadata is kept locally?
“Just another guy that you see around
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kewms
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Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:06 pm Post

AnotherGuy wrote:
kewms wrote:...
Your hypothetical "lock" would therefore also need to protect the Binder structure, and so we're right back to only one person being able to access the project at a time.
...
Katherine


So, is it completely safe to keep a project in a shared DropBox folder as far as only one person is accessing it at a time? No filesystem related metadata is kept locally?


A Scrivener project contains no information about where it was created or where it is "supposed" to be stored. You can freely transfer projects between computers. A shared Dropbox folder looks to Scrivener just like any other folder on the local computer: Scrivener doesn't know (or care) that it's a shared folder.

However, that doesn't mean a shared folder is "completely safe." Whenever a project is shared between devices, it's possible for a conflict to occur if changes on device A are not synchronized back to device B. It's also possible for some mechanism outside of Scrivener to damage the project: if a person with access to the shared folder simply deletes the entire project, there's nothing Scrivener can do about it. Always have backups, and read this article on best practices to reduce the risk of synchronization errors:
https://scrivener.tenderapp.com/help/kb ... c-services

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Ja
JackSchaeffer
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Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:59 pm Post

Katherine,

Thank you. And for your help to me directly in the past.

I for one hope Scrivener is around for a long, long time. I purchased my upgrade yesterday to Win 3. I have a project that Scrivener is perfect for.

All the best to the Scrivener team.

Jack

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pigfender
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Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:56 pm Post

devinganger wrote:KB has far more access... Is he perfect?

jackschaeffer wrote:If you truly think I was "berating" KB (who I don't know and have never heard of until you invoked his name)

Ah... this is a common misunderstanding. “KB” isn’t a real person, but a naming convention in tech / support circles. It stands for “Knowledge Base” and usually refers to a database of guidance and info sheets that support staff (and sometimes users) can refer to in order to get answers to both common and tricky questions. Because the original Scrivener Knowledge Base included the documents detailing the application design philosophy and architecture, “asking KB” became support staff code for looking up reasons why something couldn’t be done within the Scrivener paradigm.

The idea got more confused when, just before the LL forums migrated over to this site, AmberV programmed a forum bot to answer questions based on that Knowledge Base and called it KB. You’ll see it in early forum posts when people tried to personify KB by calling it “Kevin” and KB resisting (even including a specific request not to be called Kevin in its autosignature at one point).

I think AmberV has upgraded the programming several times since then, and now the bot is pretty realistic, and much more comfortable with being anthropomorphised - although “he” still doesn’t like being called Kevin.

It’s worth noting that I think several people have held the title “AmberV” over the years, so it’s not entirely clear how much the current post holder is still involved in the upkeep of KB’s code, but if he is (the current post holder is a young European male, I believe - LL doesn’t tend to broadcast this stuff) he should take a bow because the KB bot is one of the best I’ve interacted with and almost seems self-aware at this version.
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AnotherGuy
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Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:22 am Post

kewms wrote:... and read this article on best practices to reduce the risk of synchronization errors:
https://scrivener.tenderapp.com/help/kb ... c-services

Katherine


Thank you.
“Just another guy that you see around
No more than a face somewhere in a crowd “

cr
creactiv
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Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:47 pm Post

kewms wrote:
creactiv wrote:
I was only asking for a locking mechanism, telling me, someone is using the document in the first place, so i dont crash my mates work. Second i was asking for being able to add content to the document in a secluded area, given, that i cannot work on the document parts another person is working on. Lets say, mate 1 opened entire document and i am working on a new chapter, this would be merged, as soon as both of us close the software.


Have you tried the Scrivener 3 beta? Scrivener 3 accomplishes this with the Import and Merge feature: both collaborators work independently, then the owner of the "master" version merges changes back in.

Katherine


I have to admit i didn't try 3 Beta, because i was waiting for V3 release. Which came in the other day, and i got it today. So i will start fiddling a bit with that and figuring out about this mport and merge feature.

Will keep you posted :-)

Thanks all of you, and i didn't realize this would raise tension as it did, which wasn't my intention at all.

And thank you Katherine to get back on this one... I will give it a try on Nextcloud to figure out.

Btw, i am writing manuals as well as translating fiction; so i am somehow in both worlds. My workflow would be to do the rough writing in Scrivener and put together what it needs and doing the finetuning in Papyrus.

Let''s see, whether this will really work, while working on different devices.


Best