Scrivener for Windows

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Jaysen
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Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:20 pm Post

I guess I'm confused. As both a Mac and Windows user, There are updates due to DEFECTS IN THE CORE OS for both platforms on a regular basis. In the case of Windows, every month... on a Tuesday. Is the problem that a "once a month install" for Scrivener is another set of downtime?

Last time I checked, the entire Scriv beta process, including download, was less than 20min. My regularly scheduled Windows patching is over 90min of download, install, repair busted software. And I PAID for windows to be broken every month.

What am I missing? honest question. I don't see the difference.
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

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devinganger
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Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:39 pm Post

hx368 wrote:It's disheartening reading the bullying that goes on with legitimate questions being asked.


If my recent "I gotta confess" post triggered this response, I will just point out that I was directly responding to the implication that L&L are not acting in good faith. "Rope a dope" as a term implies some sort of nefarious strategy involving deception.

Most of us here have no problems with people asking legitimate questions, but there is a line that is crossed when questions and disappointment move into character attacks and conspiracy theories. I have not always been good about making that distinction in the past, for which I apologize, but that is my personal trigger these days for how I will participate in a thread (if at all) about these things.

Personal disappointment is not a reason to lash out at people who, at the end of the day, are just trying to make sure they can continue to make a living delivering great software. I absolutely guarantee every last one of them is more sick of WinScriv still being in beta than all of us customers put together, because the regular bullying and character attacks that a handful of customers feel entitled to make are *not fun* to be on the receiving end of.
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Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

Sk
SkylerT
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Tue Jan 05, 2021 8:53 pm Post

As a full time software engineer who also does contract work on the side, I completely understand how it is to be on the receiving end of angry comments. Honestly they do not bother me anymore and i'm sure the developers here probably have pretty thick skin at this point too.

Has anyone here ever had to come in behind a super programmer and either replicate their work or add on to it? I have and it blows. Keith wrote Scrivener for Mac pretty much alone from my understanding and being a Windows developer that has to come in behind and replicate all that work and make your finished product completely compatible with his is no small task. Not to mention that coding for Windows is not my cup of tea - but I do know plenty who love it so I won't say that's a sole reason for long development.

The point is that any time one person writes software solo and others come in behind, it is not a fun experience and i've been on both sides of that. That is not a reflection on Keith (other than that he is a super programmer indeed :) ) but rather the nature of developing software. I'm sure they're doing the best they can and I admire them for not releasing garbage and actually waiting for a rock solid build to release. For those who game, look at Cyberpunk 2077 - a game that took about 9 years or more to develop and released with so many bugs and such bad performance on PS4 that it literally got taken off the PlayStation store. Imagine if they had just waited until it was stable despite all the griping and pressure?

Anyways maybe i'm just sympathetic because I understand how these things go. Right now no one has been cheated by L&L any way you look at it, I can say that much. If you bought Scrivener for Windows you have a solid release build (1.9) that you paid for and a FREE upcoming upgrade to the latest version which is usually a paid upgrade. If you bought Scriv for Mac, well that works outstanding. If you didn't buy it, you now have a FREE Scriv 3 beta that is almost bug free at this point and much more stable than a lot of software being sold out of beta.

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Writemood
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Platform: Windows

Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:35 am Post

OwenKelly wrote:... I cannot see what the fuss is about. The beat version is there to use ...

Presuming this is not an auto-correct or dyslexic typo, Owen, I would be very interested in acquiring the beat version, myself. I presume that this specialty version eschews mundane terms like "OK" and "Yes," and substitutes hipper terms, like "Cool, Daddy-O!" and "That's a gas!" It could really set the mood, should I endeavor to write a Beatnik novel. I'm also looking forward to the Hippie version of Scrivener. Far out, man!

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OwenKelly
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Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:29 am Post

Writemood wrote:
OwenKelly wrote:... I cannot see what the fuss is about. The beat version is there to use ...

Presuming this is not an auto-correct or dyslexic typo, Owen, I would be very interested in acquiring the beat version, myself. I presume that this specialty version eschews mundane terms like "OK" and "Yes," and substitutes hipper terms, like "Cool, Daddy-O!" and "That's a gas!" It could really set the mood, should I endeavor to write a Beatnik novel. I'm also looking forward to the Hippie version of Scrivener. Far out, man!


Ah, you have to ask Keith personally - and you have to make him dig your asking and get him hip to the notion that you ain't down with the squares.

It took me five attempts!

g
g e hoeflinger
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:02 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:45 pm Post

I think the main developer of Scrivener 3 for Windows is Zeno, and he is proving his postulate! Every new release of a beta is halfway to the release. ergo...

Ag
AgedWriter
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Platform: Windows

Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:24 am Post

"There is a blog update from 17 December (https://www.literatureandlatte.com/blog ... aunch-news), so there has been recent communication. Its title suggests a relatively imminent release, though that has been implied before. "

I just checked out that post. They are saying sometime in 2021. Which sounds familiar from other years but doesn't sound imminent.

"It's worth noting that there has been more official, public communication on development in the last month than the previous year, "

And what does that suggest? To me, it suggests a company that really has no regard for its customer base, and probably not much more for its own reputation. The person invited to the super secret L&L base in the pacific (who forgot to mention the volcano btw),demonstrates that very well.

Too, L&L writes "..'...We expect to release Scrivener 3 for Windows during 2021" and then further down the page writes this...
"...buyers of Scrivener 1 for Windows will not be eligible for a refund in the unlikely event that something happens to prevent Scrivener 3’s release.". '

Sometime in 2021' and don't buy because you think we're going to release this product finally' is just not good enough. Not to mention the craziest sales pitch evvvvvrrrrr! Is it laziness? Incompetence? Or just a scheme?

I think partially in response to posts such as yours that have expressed deep frustration. Scriv's developers have always encouraged open feedback, so you shouldn't be shy about offering it, as long as it's expressed politely.[/quote]

Done.
(ps-thank you for the thoughtful reply.which is more than L&L bothered I note.)

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devinganger
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Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:48 am Post

AgedWriter wrote:And what does that suggest? To me, it suggests a company that really has no regard for its customer base, and probably not much more for its own reputation.


It does no such thing. It implies no such thing. You may be inferring it, but that is your baggage and has nothing to do with what L&L bring to the table.

AgedWriter wrote:The person invited to the super secret L&L base in the pacific (who forgot to mention the volcano btw),demonstrates that very well.


That person was directly responding to yet more character defamation and clearly notes in their signature that they are not an L&L employee. That person is, in fact, one of several forum users who have been publicly called out by L&L employees for inappropriate responses many times over the years.
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Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

Pr
Prometheus
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Platform: Windows

Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:21 pm Post

"I would respectfully suggest that these people are likely to be disappointed. Almost all software worth having gets regular updates, and my guess is that people who get the (free or paid)version 3 when it is finally released will have to install version 3.01 within a couple of months, and then 3.02, and then..."

Updates do not - and should not - mean reinstalling an entire application over and over and over again. I can't even think of anything I use that requires a fresh installation for updates (beyond the current beta of Scrivener, which I uninstall and reinstall every time there's a new one). There's only one thing I use that has every even meant installing an entirely new version when the app went from version x to version y, and that was simply due to the devs completely rewriting the app from the ground up (although they retained backwards compatibility for the output of the previous version, via import routines).

Any live, production thing for the average user that has to constantly be reinstalled is likely not one they're going to use. Most people are not tech savvy, and they don't want that hassle. Any programmer who can't apply bugfixes to a complex app sans reinstalling the entire thing is not worth their salt.

Ag
AgedWriter
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Platform: Windows

Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:42 pm Post

Prometheus wrote:"I would respectfully suggest that these people are likely to be disappointed. Almost all software worth having gets regular updates, and my guess is that people who get the (free or paid)version 3 when it is finally released will have to install version 3.01 within a couple of months, and then 3.02, and then..."

Updates do not - and should not - mean reinstalling an entire application over and over and over again. I can't even think of anything I use that requires a fresh installation for updates (beyond the current beta of Scrivener, which I uninstall and reinstall every time there's a new one). There's only one thing I use that has every even meant installing an entirely new version when the app went from version x to version y, and that was simply due to the devs completely rewriting the app from the ground up (although they retained backwards compatibility for the output of the previous version, via import routines).

Any live, production thing for the average user that has to constantly be reinstalled is likely not one they're going to use. Most people are not tech savvy, and they don't want that hassle. Any programmer who can't apply bugfixes to a complex app sans reinstalling the entire thing is not worth their salt.


Totally agreed. There is some development utility in releasing these revisions if the dev team (if there is even a 'team') is working its way down a knock list, fixing broken stuff along the way so that the list is finally gone. Not that the method is any good if it doesn't ultimately launch a project or alternatively drives customers away.

I note that Facebook went from a handful of people in 2004 to a15 billion dollar company in 4 years with pages numbering in the hundreds of thousands, and planning an international headquarters in the EU while they redid and expanded their code more than once. Not that a souped up word processor with an already defined feature set, used by word nerds such as myself really compares to the pressure of a FB type of entity. .

This should have been done, rolled out the door years ago. And certainly their launch date should never have been a secret, nor used as a rope a dope tease for customers.

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SkylerT
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Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:02 pm Post

Prometheus wrote:"I would respectfully suggest that these people are likely to be disappointed. Almost all software worth having gets regular updates, and my guess is that people who get the (free or paid)version 3 when it is finally released will have to install version 3.01 within a couple of months, and then 3.02, and then..."

Updates do not - and should not - mean reinstalling an entire application over and over and over again. I can't even think of anything I use that requires a fresh installation for updates (beyond the current beta of Scrivener, which I uninstall and reinstall every time there's a new one). There's only one thing I use that has every even meant installing an entirely new version when the app went from version x to version y, and that was simply due to the devs completely rewriting the app from the ground up (although they retained backwards compatibility for the output of the previous version, via import routines).

Any live, production thing for the average user that has to constantly be reinstalled is likely not one they're going to use. Most people are not tech savvy, and they don't want that hassle. Any programmer who can't apply bugfixes to a complex app sans reinstalling the entire thing is not worth their salt.


This I agree with - it should be much easier to install the new version than it is right now and I hope it is easier when this app goes out of beta. Typically application updates are small and only change the files that were updated (plus a recompiled application binary, which should be small and link to other files/libraries to keep it small).

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devinganger
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Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:40 am Post

Prometheus wrote:Updates do not - and should not - mean reinstalling an entire application over and over and over again. I can't even think of anything I use that requires a fresh installation for updates


You may have limited experience, then. Under the hood, a lot more software than you think is doing uninstall/install updated version (all wrapped behind a pretty installer routine that hides it from you) rather than trying to patch existing binaries/files.

As long as the installer knows to save/reapply the appropriate settings from one version to the next, and you end up with the new version, who actually cares (other than the developers) about how it's done?
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Devin L. Ganger
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes -- Kevin Flynn

Ki
Kinsey
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Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:03 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
You may have limited experience, then. Under the hood, a lot more software than you think is doing uninstall/install updated version (all wrapped behind a pretty installer routine that hides it from you) rather than trying to patch existing binaries/files.

As long as the installer knows to save/reapply the appropriate settings from one version to the next, and you end up with the new version, who actually cares (other than the developers) about how it's done?


This seems to be an argument against using the beta. The "pretty installer routine" is, clearly, not applicable when using the beta. Moreover, updating the beta requires a lot of user intervention: From the beta testing announcement thread:

"Please be sure to uninstall previous betas before installing this Beta. If you wish, your program preferences can be saved first via the "Manage..." button in File > Options, then reloaded after the fresh installation. Bear in mind that changes between betas may affect restoring settings, and if you are experiencing oddities, please try resetting to the defaults."

That's quite a lot of work for the average user. So there is a really strange sub-argument happening in this thread. The "pretty installer routine" means that when MacScriv asks me if I want to update, I save everything, click yes and let the automated process do its work. Typically takes a few seconds, and then I'm back working. That was also my experience of Windows v1 (until the forced migration to Paddle rendered my copy essentially unusable). One would expect the update process for Windows v3 to be equally smooth, and that users will not be required to manually uninstall Scrivener before updating to 3.1, 3.2, etc.

That is not a comment on the developers or the release timetable, just an observation on the contention that updating the beta = updating stable, released software.

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StarDog2
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Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:37 pm Post

Kinsey wrote:
This seems to be an argument against using the beta. The "pretty installer routine" is, clearly, not applicable when using the beta. Moreover, updating the beta requires a lot of user intervention.


Yes, that is why I have chosen to continue to use V1.9 for Windows. I tried the beta a while back, and I found it interfering with what I want to do with Scrivener in the first place. I've been a beta tester for Photography apps and looking for errors and omissions is best left to those who enjoy that sort of thing.

I have flirted with other writing/authoring software, and each of them have their own specific 'charms', and I can see why they are perfect for some people. But I like the known stability of V1.9, I know what I can do with it, and what I cannot. I figure that when V3 for Windows finally does come out, I will be pleasantly surprised, and I will only have to learn it once!

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xiamenese
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Mon Jan 11, 2021 5:15 pm Post

Kinsey wrote:<snip>

This seems to be an argument against using the beta. The "pretty installer routine" is, clearly, not applicable when using the beta. Moreover, updating the beta requires a lot of user intervention: From the beta testing announcement thread:

"Please be sure to uninstall previous betas before installing this Beta. If you wish, your program preferences can be saved first via the "Manage..." button in File > Options, then reloaded after the fresh installation. Bear in mind that changes between betas may affect restoring settings, and if you are experiencing oddities, please try resetting to the defaults."

<snip>.

I think those instructions were written when the Betas were first made available. Recently, up until RC12 or 13 it has been perfectly feasible to upgrade the Beta using the option within the app. Sadly, some sort of change in an update to Qt at that point has been causing the internal updater to fail and crash Scrivener. So for the moment you have to do a manual install until the devs can work round it. You can read about it in this long thread:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=64168&start=15

:)

Mark
The Scrivenato sometimes known as Mr X.
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