Has Windows Version 3 Been Scrapped?

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Stoltverd
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Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:18 pm Post

ArgentArts wrote:I probably shouldn't jump in, either, but why not? I own a license of v1 of Scrivener and have been using it for years. For what I use it for, it's great. Over the last year, I've been using the beta for v3. Again, for what I use it for, it's been great, too. So, I like the software and will be upgrading to v3 when it (eventually) is released.

Having said that, there is really no excuse for a development cycle taking this long for a piece of software like Scrivener. People can talk about how complex it is or isn't, but that shouldn't really be the issue. A lot more complex software gets developer in a lot less time (even with lone-developers). It's been literally years that v3 has been in development. What is this, the Duke Nukem of digital writing? (If you don't know about Duke Nukem Forever, well, it was in development from 1996 to 2011 and was considered vaporware!)

From the customer's perspective, it matters little how complex the development is or isn't. What matters is the company has said, several time, in several ways, over several years, that v3 will soon be released. They even had a campaign offering v3 for free if v1 was purchased (indicating that v3 was soon to be released). From a customer's perspective, especially prospective costumers, this is off-putting, to say the least.

As someone who rarely comes to this forum (mainly to check and see if an actual release is pending), it is even more off-putting to see how some here flock to attack anyone who would state their dissatisfaction with the delay in release of v3. It's like a bunch of bullies trying to keep the peace by attempting to silence the voices of those who are dissatisfied. Yes, there is a v3 beta that we can all use. I think that's great. Yes, those that are dissatisfied could be using this beta for free while waiting for v3 to eventually be released. But none of that addresses the actual dissatisfaction and, frankly, these people should be allowed to voice their concerns without being attacked. If someone does not want to use a beta, for whatever reason, whether their reason is a good one or not, they should not have to. Just because there is a beta does not invalidate their reason for being dissatisfied.

For the first few years using Scrivener v1, I never bothered with the forum. I didn't have a need, I suppose. But when I saw that v3 was pending (years ago), I started to visit to see if I could get news about the update and, later, to check on the beta. After a few visits, that's when I started to see the attacks on those that voiced their dissatisfaction. It's a real turn-off. Until visiting this forum, I had a great impression of L&L and Scrivener, but the attacks by some members, including some of the snide remarks here on the forum from someone who works with L&L, causes me to rethink that position.

I'm still planning on upgrading to v3. But some of the voices from this community make it a more difficult choice. Thankfully, I can use the software without having to come here. And that's a sad statement to make, when you think about it. A community like this should be quite welcoming, even to those that have a gripe about the continued delays of v3.


I agree with EVERYTHING you said.
In fact, I registered just to post after years of lurking doing the same as you.
I'm a game designer and developer specialized in narrative design and currently studying software engineering.
A software development project that constantly gives estimates and then starts to delay the release is a project that is badly managed and badly developed.
The only reason I can think for the amount of delays WITHOUT a cancelation of a project, is manipulation by the development team, manipulation by the project manager or ineptitude by the stakeholders. Delaying a release is a loss of money. That's why is software development it's preferable to make cuts and compromises than to delay SO MANY TIMES. SPECIALLY when you take into account the great amount of agile development frameworks, there is just no excuse for a software development taking up so long.
It doesn't matter the reason.
Why was Duke Nukem Forever delayed so many times? Because it was badly managed and the development process had to be started again and again.
Is the delay because of the coding style? Fire the development team and hire one that is capable of refactoring. or fire the manager/lead and hire one that is able to tell the team how to refactor and why.
Is the delay because of lack of communication between the team members? Fire the manager/lead and hire one that knows how to use different platforms.
Is the delay because the framework chosen to develop the program lacks the needed libraries/integrations/architecture/etc to code all the required functions? Fire the manager and hire one that knows how to choose a framework.
Etc.
I can't think of ANY issue where a project manager/lead that delays a project SO MUCH, and fails to deliver a product on ANY date is not responsible and shouldn't be fired. SPECIALLY if hired by a small company and if he has a small development team. The amount of money lost on this project must be HUGE.

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kewms
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Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:22 pm Post

Firing the development team in the middle of a project is unlikely to improve the ultimate delivery time, as the new team then needs to come up to speed.

We do not comment on internal personnel matters.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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Stoltverd
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Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:44 pm Post

kewms wrote:Firing the development team in the middle of a project is unlikely to improve the ultimate delivery time, as the new team then needs to come up to speed.

We do not comment on internal personnel matters.

Katherine


Well, probably it's the manager.
Good developers are numerous. Good managers... Not so much.
And of course it would help. If the manager is the responsible for the delays, getting a good one would ultimately speed up the development process. EVEN if that entails refactoring and retraining the team. After all, a good manager would be able to push the development, while a bad manager would continue to delay and slow down the project.
But leaving that aside... i think that at this point the question shouldn't be if the project was scrapped, but if it SHOULDN'T be.

To clarify by the way; I'm not asking to discuss the internal workings of LL. I just want to say my opinion on what I see.

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lunk
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Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:58 pm Post

Stoltverd wrote:I'm a game designer and developer specialized in narrative design and currently studying software engineering.
- - -
I can't think of ANY issue where a project manager/lead that delays a project SO MUCH, and fails to deliver a product on ANY date is not responsible and shouldn't be fired.

I can think of several, but maybe that’s just because I’m older than you.
One example: if the project manager is also the owner of the very small company and part of the development team, or if the lead coder is a personal friend of the owner of the very small company, or if the company owner has already tried to hire new coders and that didn’t help in any way.

Creating a Win version of a Mac app with feature parity isn’t that easy. Have you any personal experience of that?
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Stoltverd
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Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:10 pm Post

lunk wrote:
Stoltverd wrote:I'm a game designer and developer specialized in narrative design and currently studying software engineering.
- - -
I can't think of ANY issue where a project manager/lead that delays a project SO MUCH, and fails to deliver a product on ANY date is not responsible and shouldn't be fired.

I can think of several, but maybe that’s just because I’m older than you.
One example: if the project manager is also the owner of the very small company and part of the development team, or if the lead coder is a personal friend of the owner of the very small company, or if the company owner has already tried to hire new coders and that didn’t help in any way.

Creating a Win version of a Mac app with feature parity isn’t that easy. Have you any personal experience of that?

I have personal experience on porting. Not to mac, the market for MAC games is not as huge (but it's growing). It's hard. A lot.
However, in the situations you described, I believe it's still responsibility of the manager and should be fired.
If the manager is the owner or part of the team, he/she should have experience and knowledge managing projects. What's happening with this one? If it's such an issue, hiring a manager would be cheaper than keep delaying.
If the lead coder is a personal friend of the owner, it's still his responsibility and he should be fired. Will it happen? Probably not, since in this situation we're imagining, they are friends. That doesn't change whose responsibility it is and who should be fired.
And finally, If hiring new developers didn't help, then that makes it clear: It's responsibility of the manager and he should be fired.

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lunk
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Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:56 pm Post

If I was the owner-manager-coder, I wouldn’t fire myself. :D
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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lunk
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Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:00 pm Post

Stoltverd wrote:hiring a manager would be cheaper than keep delaying.

No. Hiring a manager costs money that you have to pay. The delay causes a reduction in income. Those two are not equal, not even in accounting.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:12 pm Post

Stoltverd wrote:I can't think of ANY issue where a project manager/lead that delays a project SO MUCH, and fails to deliver a product on ANY date is not responsible and shouldn't be fired.
One of the reasons we have insolvency laws and the idea of individual bankruptcy (ie the ability to walk away from financial responsibility without criminal penalty) is because we’ve long since accepted the idea that projects / initiatives underperform for a whole lot of reasons other than mismanagement.

Such ideas are pretty much obsolete in almost all countries. I think we woke up to that idea in the 1860s in the UK. Or roughly the same time the US abolished slavery, if you want some context for how behind the times that thinking is.
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Twolane
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Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:49 pm Post

Question: Has Windows Version 3 Been Scrapped?

Asked and answered: No.

Nothing to see here. Move along now.

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Stoltverd
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Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:28 am Post

lunk wrote:
Stoltverd wrote:hiring a manager would be cheaper than keep delaying.

No. Hiring a manager costs money that you have to pay. The delay causes a reduction in income. Those two are not equal, not even in accounting.


You have to pay "x" developers por "y" months to get the product. Delaying will maye "y" greater, and so, the total will be greater too.
x*y=z, where z grows proportionally to "y"

Now. Hiring a capable manager adds to "x" yes. BUT reduces "y", and since "y" is multiplying, in the end; z will be smaller.

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Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:09 am Post

lunk wrote:
Stoltverd wrote:hiring a manager would be cheaper than keep delaying.

No. Hiring a manager costs money that you have to pay. The delay causes a reduction in income. Those two are not equal, not even in accounting.

And this is not even necessarily a true statement. Only L&L knows what sales of the current Windows release are like, but I'm assuming it's still generating revenue because it's a perfectly functional program as it is.
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kewms
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Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:08 am Post

Stoltverd wrote:
lunk wrote:
Stoltverd wrote:hiring a manager would be cheaper than keep delaying.

No. Hiring a manager costs money that you have to pay. The delay causes a reduction in income. Those two are not equal, not even in accounting.


You have to pay "x" developers por "y" months to get the product. Delaying will maye "y" greater, and so, the total will be greater too.
x*y=z, where z grows proportionally to "y"

Now. Hiring a capable manager adds to "x" yes. BUT reduces "y", and since "y" is multiplying, in the end; z will be smaller.


Again, we don't comment on personnel matters. Therefore, there simply isn't enough public information to support any claims regarding the impact of personnel changes on y. Changing the team *might* reduce y, but might also increase it.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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theswede
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Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:49 pm Post

endgame wrote:As a position, definitely, but it isn't any different than I would have imagined. Where and when was this policy declaration published?


You're asking that after reading the post it was published in?
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DavidR
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Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:42 pm Post

Stoltverd wrote:
kewms wrote:Firing the development team in the middle of a project is unlikely to improve the ultimate delivery time, as the new team then needs to come up to speed.

We do not comment on internal personnel matters.

Katherine


Well, probably it's the manager....
To clarify by the way; I'm not asking to discuss the internal workings of LL. I just want to say my opinion on what I see.

Stoltverd, if you're wondering why no one seems to agree with you here, the answer is lurking in two expressions in this post: "probably" and "what I see." The thing is, none of us users actually sees the day-to-day operations at L&L at all, so "what we see" is not enough information to justify even a "probable" opinion.
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Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:33 pm Post

pigfender wrote:
Stoltverd wrote:I can't think of ANY issue where a project manager/lead that delays a project SO MUCH, and fails to deliver a product on ANY date is not responsible and shouldn't be fired.
One of the reasons we have insolvency laws and the idea of individual bankruptcy (ie the ability to walk away from financial responsibility without criminal penalty) is because we’ve long since accepted the idea that projects / initiatives underperform for a whole lot of reasons other than mismanagement.

Such ideas are pretty much obsolete in almost all countries. I think we woke up to that idea in the 1860s in the UK. Or roughly the same time the US abolished slavery, if you want some context for how behind the times that thinking is.

What is obsolete about Stoltverd's thinking here? People get fired and laid off every time for underperforming in modern days too. And a funny thing is that your statement about insolvency laws doesn't even invalidate Stoltverd's argument. You are only conflating underperforming employees and business entities that eventually go bankrupt.