Has Windows Version 3 Been Scrapped?

Ki
Kinsey
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Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:11 pm Post

Astaff wrote:So, banning those people would be significantly more friendly. Everyone who’s left could sit around the campfire bitching about the delay to to V3 and generally feeling good about how all the helpers have been banned. What a pile of smelly stuff!

As Katherine has said, those you want banned are amongst the most helpful. Are you going to step in to fill the void as you claim? Bullshit! You’ve shown no indication of the level of knowledge you claim, nor any indication of a willingness to help. You do show every indication along with all of your campfire buddies of existing solely to bitch and claim you’re going elsewhere, even claiming to be actively driving people away from Scrivener (who should be banned?).

Just a totally weird thought....If you did actually chip in to help your now 29 complaints about delay and how people who defend L&L have hurt your feelings would carry some weight, but no, it’s just bitch, bitch. Current score 29/0.

Make of that what you will.


Well. You are mixing me up with someone else, the reference made by Katherine to a member with 28 posts was not to me. I also did not suggest banning anyone. As for the attack in your second paragraph, I'm taken aback. It's completely unfounded. I have tried to help out here when I can. As for your pejoratives ... "Bullshit ... Campfire buddies ... existing solely to bitch ... bitch bitch bitch ..." Interesting refutation of my point that some people here are incredibly rude. And I'll say it again, you are mistaken if you think I am new, or have only 28 posts. That's quite easy to check.

kewms wrote:If you feel the forum rule ("Be polite.") is being violated, there's a "report" button on every post.

If you find the "tone" of a particular thread to be unpleasant, but still within the limits of politeness, you should feel free to ignore it or, even better, to start your own thread. Be the culture you want to see in the forum.

Katherine


I hate to resort to the report button. Used it for the first and only time recently, it hasn't made a difference. I'm disappointed that your advice about culture was delivered to me, not to the post by Astaff quoting me.

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kewms
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Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:26 pm Post

Kinsey wrote:I hate to resort to the report button. Used it for the first and only time recently, it hasn't made a difference. I'm disappointed that your advice about culture was delivered to me, not to the post by Astaff quoting me.


It was delivered to the forum as a whole. That's precisely why I *didn't* quote anyone in particular. You are welcome to examine your own posts and decide whether or not they contribute to a helpful, friendly tone.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

Ki
Kinsey
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Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:43 pm Post

Thanks for the clarification, Katherine.

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Daniela Wolfe
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Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:10 am Post

Jaaaarne wrote:
Daniela Wolfe wrote:And I suppose you have proof of that? I don't recall seeing anything that set a hard date and I've looked.


Maybe not quire what you're looking for, but look here: viewtopic.php?p=274224#p274224


Before releasing v.3 for Mac. September 2016.

We'll have news soonish. The hard part is going to be letting our Windows users down gently. The macOS update is likely to be a good six months ahead of the Windows one (like an inverse Microsoft), but our Windows developers are working on a 3.0 to match the macOS version


That's not quite a promise, of course. Still. It was four years ago, and the Windows v.3 was expected ~half a year after the Mac v.3

Thing is, you need to dig really deep to find anything, because this has been going on for several years. :)

People have been complaining about the lack of communication for two years now. That's because there was an understanding that Windows v.3 was expected to be released in 2018 (most probably because of the "likely to be a good six months" after the Mac release). I can't remember if I participated in any discussions to try and dig out more, it was so long ago. :)

Right, not a promise.

Jaaaarne wrote:Then there was also this: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/blog ... rses-mouth

We initially slated “some time in 2018” for release, but later revised that to “by the end of Q2 2019”, and we're not going to make that either.


Sounds like a promise to you? :)

They could just as easily be referencing prior estimates, not making a promise. The phrasing is too ambiguous to say for certain. It could have been something like "We're definitely going to have this out by the end of Q2 2019", but that's conjecture without the full quote. "By the end of Q2 2019" could have been prefaced with something like "we're aiming to release it" and the statement becomes "We're aiming to release it by the end of Q2 2019" which is far from a promise. As with all things wording is key. Without the full quote, we can't say for certain. So, no I'm not counting that as a promise.

Jaaaarne wrote:And there was this: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/blog ... gic-number (notice it's from year 2017).

all we can say is that Scrivener 3 for Windows will be released when it’s ready, most likely some time in 2020


Seeing how "highly likely" argument has been enough of a reason for international economic sanctions, I'd say "likely" sounds like a promise. :) However, in this particular case there have been several "likely" estimates, which means they don't know themselves. which is probably okay. Who knows what might have come up, what difficulties. Porting to another platform is not an easy feat.

Most likely is NOT a promise. If you say you'll mostly likely stopping at the grocery store after work, you aren't making a firm commitment. You probably will go, but there's a chance you won't.

Jaaaarne wrote:Still, people are frustrated, and it's understandable. It's been going on for several years, with all these - yes - promises. Myself, I've tried beta and quite liked the look and feel. However, it expiring every two weeks or so without any obvious way to at least fetch settings to reinstall, made me uninstall for good after the third iteration.

Back in 2018 I left for Typora and Writer+ (because Linux & Android). And when the quarantines & lockdowns started, I decided to go look at what was the state of affairs in the Scrivener kingdom. :) Imagine the laughing fit I had, when I saw that no v.3 was still released, no estimates given, and people were still complaining about it. :)

I understand people's frustration, but it's silly to put words in Literature and Latte's mouth. They've released estimates, nothing more.

It's a situation I understand all too well. I worked retail for a number of years, and I would frequently encounter customers asking me when a certain item would be back in stock. I would tell them that we had a truck on <insert day of the week>, and that they could call and see if the merchandise had come back in. I didn't have a way of checking what was on the truck as the manifest didn't usually drop into the computer until just before the trailer had arrived and even then it was dozens and sometimes over a hundred pages long and filled with very generic product descriptions that weren't usually very helpful. Occasionally, I would have a customer who did not bother to call and would instead come in, find the shelf empty, and accuse me of lying when the item I had 'promised would arrive ' was not in stock. See in parallels there?

I, for one, am perfectly happy using the very stable beta version which is available right now for download. And even then, 1.9.X is perfectly functional and still a very capable piece of software. I could easily switch back to the older version and it would be more than adequate for whatever project I threw at it.


Could Literature and Latte done a better job at communicating? Most definitely, but so much of what they've said as been completely misrepresented or been blown out of proportion. Is it frustrating the Scrivener 3 development has taken so long? Certainly, but might I suggest instead of complaining over and over and over again, people do something a little more constructive with their time? Like, say, I don't know, doing a little writing? It's become pretty obvious by now that no amount of complaining is going to push Scrivener out any faster.
Have a deliciously demented day,

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kewms
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Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:56 am Post

There have been several formal complaints about this and related threads, and several users have been formally warned. At this time, I am not redacting posts or muting people, but those are the next steps.

I would advise all participants in this thread to move on to other topics. Or maybe go write something.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

wb
wburkett
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Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:45 pm Post

Daniela Wolfe wrote:
wburkett wrote:
Daniela Wolfe wrote:
It wasn't promised in 2018 either, Literature and Latte has only ever released estimates, they never made promises.



Oh but it was! You could argue whether or not it was a "promise", but I distinctly remember the announcement "Coming in 2018". Those words about Scrivener 3.0 for Windows were written on this website.


And I suppose you have proof of that? I don't recall seeing anything that set a hard date and I've looked.


The only proof is my distinct memory of "Coming in 2018" and the excited anticipation of getting version 3.0.

However, I do have supporting evidence. In June of 2018, I wrote to LL asking when we could expect Scrivener 3.0 for Windows. On June 24th, 2018 I received an email from [Personal information removed] which said: "I just know what I've been told and that it's coming sometime this year. I wish I could be more specific."

So while noncommittal about an actual date and not really a "promise", this is pretty good evidence that someone at LL thought 3.0 was going to be released in 2018 and shared this information with the public. It was shared on the website as "Coming in 2018" and shared with me specifically by rebeca.

en
endgame
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Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:21 pm Post

Agreed this is frustrating, but primarily from the vantage point of its 'unnaturalness.' Platform transitions typically do not take this long, and this has been VERY long since its first declaration. It has that 'something ain't right' feel about it and it continues to propagate every time there's another commitment to non-commitment.

Now that being said, I'm perfectly fine with my present version. It works and I'm fairly comfortable with its basic functions. I have plenty of time to become familiar with its more extensive features as my document continues to evolve. But I would be remiss not to add that it is most discomforting continuing to find more of the same every time I look for updates.

In addition, I'd ordered and received the Take Control of Scrivener 3 book- which has nothing to do with Windows 3, good lord, but was assured this book would serve my purposes and be updated with the new version free of charge with version 3 when it was made available.

Short version? This is not a typical development cycle. Not close.

en
endgame
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Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:29 pm Post

kewms wrote:The vast majority of posters in this thread (or in the forums generally) are not Literature & Latte employees and speak only for themselves.

The official position of Literature & Latte regarding Windows Scrivener 3 is as follows:

* We know it's very late. We apologize.

* Because we have missed release dates in the past, there will be no further proposed release date announcements. Regular status updates can be found in the Windows Scrivener 3 beta forum. Many people have been using the beta for important work for some time now. Anyone who wishes can download it and evaluate its status for themselves.

* Rest assured, however, that active development of Windows Scrivener 3 is ongoing, and we intend to release it as soon as we believe we can.

Does that clarify things?

Katherine

As a position, definitely, but it isn't any different than I would have imagined. Where and when was this policy declaration published?

No
Northern_light
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Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:56 am Post

Scanning the various bug reports and upgrade logs for the beta, you get a much better sense of the complexity of the software and the diligent process of ironing out the kinks.

I was nervous about using the beta's, but I've been doing it for some time with only minor problems.

It has been clear for forever that L&L is a small development team. When I saw the problems last year with giving release dates, I personally adjusted my expectations. The team seem to know what is required and useful in the writing process and have produced software that is so far ahead of anything else out there that to my mind,

While I am looking forward to the transition from release candidate to full release, I'm not expecting it to seriously affect my own use of the beta. I will be extremely happy for L&L and their team though. They have my empathy and my support.

Scrivener 1.9 has been a huge enabler for me in my writing process. I will only ever be eternally grateful. I'm not meaning to diminish other people's frustrations with the delays or bugs, but just thinking that in big picture, Scrivener has added to my life as a writer, not taken away.

ph
phoenixloop
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Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:14 am Post

kewms wrote:
Prometheus wrote:You know, every so often I cruise over here to see what's going on, and it's the same assholes dogpiling people for any criticism about WinV3.


You have 28 posts, almost all of them in this vein. The people you are criticizing have thousands of posts, almost all of them helping with specific technical questions.

If, as a moderator, I banned the people you are criticizing, the forums would collectively become significantly *less* helpful.

Katherine


Just jumping in here because my experience is somewhat similar.

My 'customer journey' on this community site over the past couple of years has been to go directly to the beta download. And maybe every four months or so look in on a thread or two to see if there'll be some point soon where I don't have to keep re-installing Scrivener.

I'm a customer who doesn't care about the daily minutiae of a community forum. I don't care about building relationships over a piece of writing software. I don't need to wade into long threaded technical replies. I actually don't really know what happens in the rest of the forum.

But what's real interesting is the truth of the experience in the poster's words... a couple times a year I, too, come in here to check on status, and see the same phenomenon. Someone's angsty about the glacial release date, and in ride the Valkyries of condescension. It's just so... weird. It's like my life goes on but the righteous apologism stays frozen in time.

I get it Katherine; it must feel like plowing your fingers through a cheese grater dealing with the triviality of this forum. Especially after botched commitments to a user base that have extended into multiple *years*. I'd be getting testy, too. I can see this in some of the terse pushback in your replies here. Maybe you're sunnier in other areas of the site, I don't know (nor care to explore -- life is busy).

I'm only here because I've been chained to this Groundhog Day of beta installs. My experience of your company and its supporters comes through this narrow lens, and I'm sure I'm not unique in being this type of forced lurker. From where I sit, it's a sophomoric look for you.

I'm not sure why I jumped in, just that something resonated with me here. I also know that you're a small company with a unique product that fits my niche so maybe it's useful to get feedback from my facet of your customer avatar. I don't want to rail, more just to say that my experience aligns with that of the commenter -- and we're likely not the only ones who nearly never post but are forced to show up here monthly. So, for me and those like me, we're only going to see this slice of your community and service until v3 is released and we can go back to not having to deal with this forum.

It'd be way simpler to see "yep, the release date is still totally fucked, not sure when it's coming, sorry". Full stop. Without the apologism or rudeness from longtime posters. Because *it is* annoying that I don't have a product was promised to be around the corner when I purchased almost three years ago, and yeah, folks are going to burn you over that -- repeatedly. Let them ask or vent, apologize with "yep, we're super sorry for not meeting our committment, we promise we're doing the best we can", lock the thread, and move on. I don't need both the annoyance of an undelivered product and then to watch your supporters throw pocket sand into the faces of those who express that annoyance.

si
sidderke
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Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:49 pm Post

+1 to the complaints about some of the defensive people here.

I love Scrivener. I love L&L. I don't have any issues with the delayed Windows release because I'm on the Mac, but I do understand the frustration of users, and the answer of Keith a couple of weeks ago was very refreshing and very honest - in a thread on Dropbox sync and the iOS version. The attitude in these forums of people constantly defending the company in *any* thread where there is criticism is becoming very tiring, and a reason I try not to visit these forums a lot anymore.

To give an example: I posted a bug in the BUG HUNT section of the iOS forum here. If I rotate my iPad during sync, Scrivener (and the sync) crashes. Someone else posted that they had the same problem. And then one of the 'defenders' (lunk) came in to say: 'why not avoid rotating it while it syncs'?
In a damn bug hunt forum where one is expected to report bugs. I don't understand how a constant attitude like that helps other users, helps the company or helps the developer. It's encouraging to see that I'm not alone in being annoyed with this constant defending of a company in any criticism. Keith himself always has a very good no-nonsense attitude to criticism, and I always appreciate his answers and argumentations. But the answers and attitude of some other people here are very different.

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ArgentArts
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Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:35 pm Post

I probably shouldn't jump in, either, but why not? I own a license of v1 of Scrivener and have been using it for years. For what I use it for, it's great. Over the last year, I've been using the beta for v3. Again, for what I use it for, it's been great, too. So, I like the software and will be upgrading to v3 when it (eventually) is released.

Having said that, there is really no excuse for a development cycle taking this long for a piece of software like Scrivener. People can talk about how complex it is or isn't, but that shouldn't really be the issue. A lot more complex software gets developer in a lot less time (even with lone-developers). It's been literally years that v3 has been in development. What is this, the Duke Nukem of digital writing? (If you don't know about Duke Nukem Forever, well, it was in development from 1996 to 2011 and was considered vaporware!)

From the customer's perspective, it matters little how complex the development is or isn't. What matters is the company has said, several time, in several ways, over several years, that v3 will soon be released. They even had a campaign offering v3 for free if v1 was purchased (indicating that v3 was soon to be released). From a customer's perspective, especially prospective costumers, this is off-putting, to say the least.

As someone who rarely comes to this forum (mainly to check and see if an actual release is pending), it is even more off-putting to see how some here flock to attack anyone who would state their dissatisfaction with the delay in release of v3. It's like a bunch of bullies trying to keep the peace by attempting to silence the voices of those who are dissatisfied. Yes, there is a v3 beta that we can all use. I think that's great. Yes, those that are dissatisfied could be using this beta for free while waiting for v3 to eventually be released. But none of that addresses the actual dissatisfaction and, frankly, these people should be allowed to voice their concerns without being attacked. If someone does not want to use a beta, for whatever reason, whether their reason is a good one or not, they should not have to. Just because there is a beta does not invalidate their reason for being dissatisfied.

For the first few years using Scrivener v1, I never bothered with the forum. I didn't have a need, I suppose. But when I saw that v3 was pending (years ago), I started to visit to see if I could get news about the update and, later, to check on the beta. After a few visits, that's when I started to see the attacks on those that voiced their dissatisfaction. It's a real turn-off. Until visiting this forum, I had a great impression of L&L and Scrivener, but the attacks by some members, including some of the snide remarks here on the forum from someone who works with L&L, causes me to rethink that position.

I'm still planning on upgrading to v3. But some of the voices from this community make it a more difficult choice. Thankfully, I can use the software without having to come here. And that's a sad statement to make, when you think about it. A community like this should be quite welcoming, even to those that have a gripe about the continued delays of v3.

JJ
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Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:51 pm Post

phoenixloop wrote:It'd be way simpler to see "yep, the release date is still totally fucked, not sure when it's coming, sorry". Full stop. Without the apologism or rudeness from longtime posters. Because *it is* annoying that I don't have a product was promised to be around the corner when I purchased almost three years ago, and yeah, folks are going to burn you over that -- repeatedly. Let them ask or vent, apologize with "yep, we're super sorry for not meeting our committment, we promise we're doing the best we can", lock the thread, and move on. I don't need both the annoyance of an undelivered product and then to watch your supporters throw pocket sand into the faces of those who express that annoyance.

No need to lock threads, silence the longtimers or silence the complainers, who aren't wrong in the main, however tedious, repetitive, or pointless their gripes are by now. Better to make a dedicated subforum for these fallen-horse threads, with the requisite sticky L&L regrets for long-ago missed deadlines, and invitations to try the beta. Giving would-be posters in the genre a sense that they're within their rights to grizzle about the long wait, but that their legitimate points have been long acknowledged and that there's not much more to say. Giving moderators a way to "put it where the sun don't shine" without extended discussion, and giving other forum users a way to exclude the subforum from "Active Topics" if that's possible.

Rgds - Jerome

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pigfender
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Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:32 pm Post

Or we could all just write a novel together instead...

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Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:10 pm Post

ArgentArts wrote:For the first few years using Scrivener v1, I never bothered with the forum. I didn't have a need, I suppose. But when I saw that v3 was pending (years ago), I started to visit to see if I could get news about the update and, later, to check on the beta. After a few visits, that's when I started to see the attacks on those that voiced their dissatisfaction. It's a real turn-off. Until visiting this forum, I had a great impression of L&L and Scrivener, but the attacks by some members, including some of the snide remarks here on the forum from someone who works with L&L, causes me to rethink that position.
.


AgentArts whole post mirrors my own feelings. I come here less and less.