Would so LOVE to see Scrivener 3 for Windows during the Coronavirus Shutdown

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xiamenese
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Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:15 pm Post

The main reasons they released the Beta versions as early as they did was that: those of us like me who work with a collaborator, where one is a Mac user and the other uses Windows, or those who use both platforms, would be able to work as seamlessly as possible without the Mac users having to stick to v. 2 until Windows v. 3 was ready; and those Windows users who wanted to help with finding the bugs and issues in the Beta could do so.

My collaborator has been using th v.3 Betas for well over a year now—I think I started looking into it seriously around Beta 10, and she moved up from v. 1.9 a few betas later—without significant problems, though our needs in terms of features are small … it is stability that has mattered to us and it has been very stable even though features have been missing, albeit ones that she hasn't needed.

Mark

1 edit to remove redundancy!
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Sanguinius
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Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:49 am Post

Spirantz wrote: I agree that they jumped the gun and have been very irresponsible in their promises.

It's not going to change anything now, but blaming the customers for being upset isn't the way to go. A customer should NEVER be expected to use a beta version of a software. If you know anything of the software development cycle yourself, you should be perfectly aware of this.

They've marketed and programmed themselves into a corner. Simple as that. L&L have shown that they do not have the resources to complete what they started in a reasonable timeline. After such a long period of time, it's only natural that customers become irate and start looking for alternatives. After so much time has passed, everything becomes empty words.

I'm not trying to bash L&L here. I'm just saying that anything an irrate customer says at this point is perfectly justified. Show them more respect or don't say anything at all. If you're a developer yourself, you should know this. Don't vent your personal frustrations out on your customers.

The person you're replying to is not an employee of L&L, so they are not venting anything at any customers of theirs. They're acting as customers in their own right, giving their own opinions back to the person who has an issue. Respect is earned, and constant whinging doesn't earn much at all.

Am
Amcmo

Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:05 am Post

t's not going to change anything now, but blaming the customers for being upset isn't the way to go. A customer should NEVER be expected to use a beta version of a software. If you know anything of the software development cycle yourself, you should be perfectly aware of this.

They've marketed and programmed themselves into a corner. Simple as that. L&L have shown that they do not have the resources to complete what they started in a reasonable timeline.


A customer doesn’t HAVE to use the beta. They have 1.9 which they paid for and the option of using the beta.

I have extensive software development experience so am perfectly aware.

Many much larger companies have taken as long or longer to get software to full release. What about Google betas that ran for years? Much greater resources.....

sl
slin
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Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:41 am Post

Amcmo wrote:You obviously have no experience with software development. Giving a firm date as you demand is dumb in the extreme and I could point you to Microsoft, Adobe, Apple, IBM Google, and many others who have done this and failed to deliver many times over and they have resources thousands of times greater than L&L.


Claims like this only make you and the whole software development industry look dumb, so I suggest you refrain from posting along these lines.

Sure, software development is one of the many industries that don't have precisely automated factories that allow them to say "it will take 3 hrs 46 min 16 sec to produce 200 items", but that doesn't mean scheduling and setting deadlines is impossible. People working in such non-automated service industries use their skills and experience to estimate how long it will take to deliver the requested service. When setting deadlines and agreeing on delivery dates with customers, they leave themselves enough wiggle room for unforeseen circumstances/force majeure/illness/contractor issues etc.

Do they sometimes miss their deadlines anyway? Absolutely. By a few days? Totally normal. By a few weeks? Still not unusual. By a few months? Well, for particularly large & complex projects, it happens. But by a few years? Nope. That's a sign that the service provider doesn't know what they're doing, or lacks experience and therefore grossly miscalculated the required efforts, or is hiding other relevant information from their clients (e.g., a solo entrepreneur struggling with time-consuming depression might not want to make this information public because he's afraid of losing more clients).

Whatever the case is with L&L doesn't really matter here -- point is: your claim above sounds highly uninformed and incompetent. And comparing a writing software project run by two (?) developers and a handful of support staff to the likes of Google, Microsoft and Adobe, frankly, doesn't make you sound any smarter.

(And on a more constructive note: For those of you who would like to see examples of how to create a cross-platform writing tool with a very tiny developer team and nevertheless keep customers happy, take a look at the screenwriting software "Fade In", which is being developed by just one guy. L&L could learn a lot from him.)

Am
Amcmo

Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:19 am Post

Claims like this only make you and the whole software development industry look dumb, so I suggest you refrain from posting along these lines...... point is: your claim above sounds highly uninformed and incompetent.


Having been in computers and software since the Altair 8800, I have seen software (and operating systems, plus myriad hardware) announced ‘coming soon’ and taking years before availability or even abandonment And there have been major companies involved, which is why my Google etc comparison is very apt.

You were saying......dumb, uninformed and incompetent????

I am very familiar with and use Fade In which while a great piece of software is IMHO the nowhere near as complex as Scrivener so not a valid comparison.

While the Fade In developer is very competent at copying and in some ways enhancing the functionality of Final Draft, to suggest Keith & co should learn from him displays a lack of understanding of the relative complexities. I remind you, the complex Scrivener Mac and iOS have both been developed by one person - Keith. Win V3 by 2 developers.

If you take the time to read previous threads on the topic you will see all these claims over the extended development time have been made and debunked many times over.

We’re hopefully only a very short time from the V3 release, so the whole whinging exercise is a bit futile.

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theswede
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Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:47 pm Post

slin wrote:But by a few years? Nope. That's a sign that the service provider doesn't know what they're doing, or lacks experience and therefore grossly miscalculated the required efforts, or is hiding other relevant information from their clients (e.g., a solo entrepreneur struggling with time-consuming depression might not want to make this information public because he's afraid of losing more clients).


3DRealms made some of the most beloved shooters of all time. Some of the most smash hit first person shooter software to ever hit the market. They were among the best at that in the world, hammering home hit after hit.

Look up Duke Nukem Forever.

You might have heard of John Romero. If you haven't, you don't really need to take this kind of attitude. If you have, you know of his prowess and skill, and how much amazing software has his name attached.

Look up Daikatana.

Multi year delays are not the exception in this industry. They're common, recurring events, which come when the software being developed takes seemingly small steps outside of the previously established norm.

And Scrivener steps way outside the norm for Windows software.

In short, your statements betray a stunning lack of insight into the reality of software business.

(And on a more constructive note: For those of you who would like to see examples of how to create a cross-platform writing tool with a very tiny developer team and nevertheless keep customers happy, take a look at the screenwriting software "Fade In", which is being developed by just one guy. L&L could learn a lot from him.)


Fade In has a MUCH narrower scope than Scrivener. Your statement that L&L could learn from that is laughable. Seriously, you're spouting off about things you do not understand here. There is no similarity in scope and capability.

Yes, Fade In is extraordinarily capable in its chosen scope. It is a fantastic piece of software, well worth looking at if what you are doing is screenplays, and nothing more. But it is NOT comparable, in any sense, to Scrivener. The scope of Scrivener is SO MUCH LARGER that there simply is no comparison.

Also, the core point of Scrivener is not that it is cross-platform. The vast majority of users are unlikely to use this capability (except between iOS and one of the computer platforms). The core point of Scrivener is that it leverages the platform it is one extremely well, at least in the case of iOS and MacOS. Removing that would remove one of Scrivener's main strengths. Windows is a different matter; there is not much to leverage there. There, the strength of Scrivener is native code and good feature parity with MacOS Scrivener. And those are very good strengths indeed.
Jesper Anderson SA5NEO
Computer scientist. Software engineer. Scifi writer. Scuba diver.

Am
Amcmo

Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:38 am Post

Win V3 beta 44 up with the shortest list of fixes ever - Woohoo!

je
jesuslpgc
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Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:02 am Post

Amcmo wrote:Win V3 beta 44 up with the shortest list of fixes ever - Woohoo!


Maybe they didn't have a very productive period, or the remaining bugs are proving harder to tackle and hence the betas are having fewer fixes. I don't think it's wise to create expectations when the official L&L it's not offer any date or whereabouts.... When they release the final version, whenever that is, they'll make sure we'll know, and I'll have my credit card ready. In the meanwhile I'll keep on writing on my old second hand MacBook Air.

Am
Amcmo

Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:17 am Post

jesuslpgc wrote:
Amcmo wrote:Win V3 beta 44 up with the shortest list of fixes ever - Woohoo!


Maybe they didn't have a very productive period, or the remaining bugs are proving harder to tackle and hence the betas are having fewer fixes. I don't think it's wise to create expectations when the official L&L it's not offer any date or whereabouts.... When they release the final version, whenever that is, they'll make sure we'll know, and I'll have my credit card ready. In the meanwhile I'll keep on writing on my old second hand MacBook Air.


I didn’t create any expectation, and don’t recall suggesting any imminent release, unless you conjured something up between the lines. Just expressed my pleasure, given what I saw as a good number of fixes from the issues I’d been tracking, and my perception of progress.

Meanwhile I’ll keep writing on Macbook Pro and Win beta.

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pigfender
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Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:30 pm Post

Hey, everyone. Make novels, not war...
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kewms
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Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:55 pm Post

There is only one forum rule: be polite. While we do allow a great deal of latitude in the interests of open discussion, posts that violate it are subject to deletion.

Note that this is the first post in this thread by a member of the L&L staff, All other posts are from individual users, who speak for no one but themselves.

Katherine
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Teriodin
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Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:04 pm Post

I still pop in here to check if we have a Windows v3 release a couple of times a week. As soon as there is one, I will throw money at L&L. In the meantime I have continued to work on 1.9

It will happen when it happens.

I can write and publish in 1.9, quite happily but the iOS version on my iPad has made me realise what extra bells and whistles I will acquire so the move to the windows beta may happen soon for me. :mrgreen:

I honestly feel a Mac in my future after years of working on PC, as soon as 'she who holds the purse strings' decides I have earned enough to justify it. :D
-- Connor

Am
Amcmo

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 pm Post

I honestly feel a Mac in my future after years of working on PC, as soon as 'she who holds the purse strings' decides I have earned enough to justify it. :D


Ah, the dreaded ‘holder of the royal purse’, ‘chancellor of the exchequer’, ‘minister of war’. :lol:

I am attempting to get budget sign off on an XPS 13 or similar for work that requires Extensive testing on an actual Win machine rather than Win under Parallels.

Fear not, my primary machine will remain Mac.

je
jesuslpgc
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Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:27 am Post

Amcmo wrote:
I honestly feel a Mac in my future after years of working on PC, as soon as 'she who holds the purse strings' decides I have earned enough to justify it. :D


Ah, the dreaded ‘holder of the royal purse’, ‘chancellor of the exchequer’, ‘minister of war’. :lol:

I am attempting to get budget sign off on an XPS 13 or similar for work that requires Extensive testing on an actual Win machine rather than Win under Parallels.

Fear not, my primary machine will remain Mac.



Why should we fear? I am already in awe of your monetary prowess.

Ge
George Williams
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Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:50 am Post

Considering history of this promise it is unlikely there wil ever be the same version cross platform.
By the time scrivener 3 for windows will be released, the Mac version will probably be 4 or 5.