WIndows 3 Release: My Thoughts

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CassiusEpps
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:21 pm Post

So, it's not wrong to expect that a new version of a product come out close to the estimated release date. I am a writer, and I've been using this software for about 3 years now, trying to work through the various bugs we've all encountered over the years.

The biggest pitfall, for me, is that the years have brought a series of upgrades to screen DPIs, Currently, I'm using a Surface Book 2 15", which has a resolution that sits just under 4k. The text on version 1.9 is grainy, at best. In fact, I had the screen professionally calibrated in hopes it might help, and it hardly helped at all. The grain wasn't an issue at first, but after a few weeks, I started getting headaches. I realized it only happened when I started using Scrivener. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, knowing how hard it is to keep up with ever-increasing screen resolutions and processor capabilities. I wasn't mad at all. That is, of course, until I repurchased the software earlier this year. I only did so because I knew I was applying to MFA programs this year, and they were advertising the fact that you could upgrade to 3.x as long as your purchase fell within a certain time. So, I figured the software would update sometime in the fall, just in time for my applications, and I wouldn't have to worry. Imagine how excited I was when they announced an August release date. That meant there'd be no headaches in the final stretch of application season. The date came and went, they said there'd be something new in weeks "definitely not months", but here we are in November. I finally went ahead and upgraded to the beta, only to realize that the flagship feature for me (the fullscreen mode) is inverted by default and that one of the bugs in the beta is that even replacing the background doesn't always stick.

This all is kinds of unacceptable. It would be made a little better if we'd received some substantive feedback regarding the new release date, but we haven't. A simple blog post would do the trick, but now we're two whole months out and I feel a little duped. Why would they advertise a possible upgrade if the upgrade wasn't actually on the horizon? This beta program isn't new, so it should have been obvious that there were some substantial bugs to be worked out in the first place, but to leave us mostly in the dark about how close we are after the months they claimed we wouldn't have to wait, it feels shady. It's not wrong to express that. It's not wrong to say that I want to be able to expect communication for that "1-time fee". Regarding that fee as an excuse for this behavior, that's not actually true. I have now paid for this product twice, only to have been left with the same product I had before the second payment.

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devinganger
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:45 pm Post

They actually *have* given a substantive update on further release timelines: they will no longer be giving any estimated delivery dates. They will release when they feel the beta is ready for release.
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kewms
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:56 pm Post

CassiusEpps wrote: I have now paid for this product twice, only to have been left with the same product I had before the second payment.


Uh, why did you do that?

Your original purchase already qualifies you for the upgrade discount, allowing you to purchase Scrivener 3 (when ready) for less than you paid for the second license. Since we have always been very clear that it would, I'm not sure how your spending decision is our fault.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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xenonexia
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:07 am Post

kewms wrote:
CassiusEpps wrote: I have now paid for this product twice, only to have been left with the same product I had before the second payment.


Uh, why did you do that?

Your original purchase already qualifies you for the upgrade discount, allowing you to purchase Scrivener 3 (when ready) for less than you paid for the second license. Since we have always been very clear that it would, I'm not sure how your spending decision is our fault.

Katherine



Well, to be fair, for those of us who frequently read and hang out in the forums, this ain't news at all. Obviously not.

But I think that the 45% discount rule could be advertised more clearly - beyond in blog posts. I haven't seen such a clause being quoted on the web site, and for instance below the advertised purchase alternatives.

Imho, it would be great to actually see that policy being quoted more liberally, also for those who haven't hung around in here for ages, so to speak. Just a thought.

Naturally, such a mention should have a "terms can be changed at our discretion" sort of thing added to it. But still. I didn't know about such a clause when I initially bought Scrivener 1 for Windows. And when I first heard of it, I had quite a hard time finding any official statements of that policy for a while. Now, I've seen it in posts and stuff, and I know it's there. But it is very hard to find. At least in clear text. Where it is needed the most.

I expect more people will have made that same mistake of buying the software twice because of the lack of such information being clearly visible on the L&L home page. So what I'm saying is that, basically, that might be helped by looking it over and adding a note in a few more visible spaces.
"If you believe in me", the unicorn said, "I'll believe in you".

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Prometheus
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:53 pm Post

Astaff wrote:
Prometheus wrote:Here's a tip for the odltimer crowd: if you don't like having to say "it will be released when it will be released", how about just saving your snarky, nasty remarks and stop driving people away from what you say is a valuable resource (this forum) but in which you apparenly brook no dissent.


Perhaps a better tip is, those who complain about V3 not being released yet, and ESTIMATED RELEASE being missed, bad mouthing the L&L team, demanding consequences, perhaps show a little respect for the hard work being put in by the team and cut their nasty remarks. Most of what you claim is nasty from oldtimers is calling out those angry people.

No one minds a polite general question despite a quick look giving all the information needed. We do get annoyed by the trolls who climb out from under their bridge to bitch and tell the developers how to suck eggs.


So you just insult the people who you deem are being insulting, even in cases when they are not (that would be lunk, primarily, on that front). How very mature of you.

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Prometheus
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:00 pm Post

kewms wrote:
CassiusEpps wrote: I have now paid for this product twice, only to have been left with the same product I had before the second payment.


Uh, why did you do that?

Your original purchase already qualifies you for the upgrade discount, allowing you to purchase Scrivener 3 (when ready) for less than you paid for the second license. Since we have always been very clear that it would, I'm not sure how your spending decision is our fault.

Katherine


"I'm sorry that you felt you had to buy a license twice, as your previous purchase made you eligible for an upgrade discount when Scrivener 3 is released. We'lll do something to make that more obvious so others don't face the same issue. Shoot me a message and we'll refund that second license purchase."

FTFY, good lord.

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AmberV
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:25 pm Post

Folks, once again, if it is going to be difficult to avoid the endless cyclical sniping and bickering, then please make an effort to talk about the topic rather than each other. If you find your response is more along the latter, then simply press the back button in your browser and go fix a cup of tea, instead of posting. I promise you the rest of the world will not miss a snarky post you never made, but the ones you do make end up blighting the thread for all time.

So it seems to me, tea is a very simple and productive solution that benefits everyone.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

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catty404
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:55 pm Post

While I appreciate the hard work of the scrivener team, I would like to just say this.

I do love this product. If I didn't, I wouldn't continue to use it religiously. For me however, the frustration with the beta is not because I find myself needed to update it on PC whenever I want to use it (I'm mostly a mobile user) but because it is the only version which will work on my pc right now.

My PC has a dual drive system with the OS on one drive and most of the user programs on the second drive. The scrivener I paid for ceased to work many iterations of windows ago, and despite extensive technical help, promptly broke again beyond any solutions I could find. I would be more than happy to go back to the previous version if it would even open at this point. But it doesn't, so here I frequent.

As a programmer though I know this is a hard process. Scrivener is massive. I get it, I really do. It's huge, and resource intensive to create and to use. Squishing one bug sends 100 more scuttling out from under the carpet. Which is why I always raise an eyebrow at a hard release date.

My request would be one beta that doesn't expire. Let me decide when to switch to the new beta.

Thank you again for all your hard work. I hope you'll consider my request.

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AmberV
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:34 pm Post

My PC has a dual drive system with the OS on one drive and most of the user programs on the second drive. The scrivener I paid for ceased to work many iterations of windows ago, and despite extensive technical help, promptly broke again beyond any solutions I could find.


Sorry to hear you couldn’t get that working, for whatever reason. I don’t think it is with a dual drive setup in general—I do the same myself, C: is for system and E: is for everything else. I have both the beta and version 1 installed to E: and running without error. But who’s to say what else is going on, I’m not much of a Windows expert, so I wouldn’t even be able to speculate.

My request would be one beta that doesn’t expire. Let me decide when to switch to the new beta.


Have you encountered any other beta programs that offer a different solution than expiration dates? For myself, I’ve only ever seen expiration dates used, to ensure that ancient copies aren’t in the wild, and of course to ensure that once it goes on sale you don’t have a free version (buggier though it may be) that anyone in the world can download instead.

What we do do differently, I’ve noticed, is give people a head’s up on when to check for a new download. Most of the betas I’ve participated in recently do not even hint at the fact that they will expire—they simply do. One day you launch it, it doesn’t work, and gives you a warning box with a link to go online and get a replacement, instead.

Perhaps it is another example where transparency is not the best course of action. :mrgreen:
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

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catty404
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:02 pm Post

AmberV wrote:Sorry to hear you couldn’t get that working, for whatever reason. I don’t think it is with a dual drive setup in general—I do the same myself, C: is for system and E: is for everything else. I have both the beta and version 1 installed to E: and running without error. But who’s to say what else is going on, I’m not much of a Windows expert, so I wouldn’t even be able to speculate.


I suspect its the setup because the main complaint from my version is that it's not executing (on the D drive) in it's supposed installed directory (C drive). It had never been installed on the C drive, and nothing had been moved there. This also broke the uninstaller. I had to manually remove everything I could find from the drives and the registry. After about two months of back and forth with a very patient and helpful tech support member, I was able to get it to run for a single session. After that, it would not open again.

AmberV wrote:Have you encountered any other beta programs that offer a different solution than expiration dates? For myself, I’ve only ever seen expiration dates used, to ensure that ancient copies aren’t in the wild, and of course to ensure that once it goes on sale you don’t have a free version (buggier though it may be) that anyone in the world can download instead.


No. I have never participated in a beta before because I have never had the need or interest. I understand not wanting there to be ancient or free copies floating around, but in this instance I don't use the beta to test it. I use it because it is the only version that works for me. I was also under the impression that the beta wouldn't work without the code I paid for. Is this not the case?

If it were up to me I would not be participating in the beta at all. I was perfectly content with the old version that I had paid for and I have faith that you will release good software when it's ready. But in the interest of utilizing the product, I am forced to use the beta.

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kewms
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:12 pm Post

catty404 wrote:No. I have never participated in a beta before because I have never had the need or interest. I understand not wanting there to be ancient or free copies floating around, but in this instance I don't use the beta to test it. I use it because it is the only version that works for me. I was also under the impression that the beta wouldn't work without the code I paid for. Is this not the case?


The beta is free. The registration code isn't even hooked up yet. -- Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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lunk
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:34 pm Post

Prometheus wrote:So you just insult the people who you deem are being insulting, even in cases when they are not (that would be lunk, primarily, on that front). How very mature of you.

How about a cup of tea..? :D
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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jesuslpgc
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:07 pm Post

Just a little aside.

I was given a little iPad mini 5 as a present. And in spite of all my frustrations, complaints, frustrations, and angry posts because version 3 for Windows has not been released yet what's the first app that I bought? :roll:

I love what's L&L has done with Scrivener for the iPad.

Ta
TadeoBlanco

Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:32 pm Post

Prometheus wrote:How very mature of you.


No one ever accused me of being ‘mature’.

Seriously..., Pot...Kettle.

Tea doesn’t do it for me...off to fire up the Nespresso. :lol: :lol:

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AmberV
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:55 pm Post

Lunk, Astaff, I’m sorry if I was not clear—but my post was aimed at everyone who is writing posts that attack, however mildly or however much in jest, other posters. If it’s about the person and not the topic, press the Back button.

catty404 wrote:If it were up to me I would not be participating in the beta at all. I was perfectly content with the old version that I had paid for and I have faith that you will release good software when it’s ready. But in the interest of utilizing the product, I am forced to use the beta.


Understood, and it is unfortunate that playing by beta rules seems to be the only way you can get the software running on your system. But yeah, that’s why it expires, because anyone and everyone can download it an contribute. We’ve essentially been giving people a two year demo. That probably is the other alternative to expiration dates: locking it down to paid users only, but that’s problematic for its own reasons since it means opening sales for it and essentially selling a beta. Some companies do it, there is even an industry around it (particularly in gaming), but it’s always rubbed me the wrong way.

jesuslpgc wrote:I love what’s L&L has done with Scrivener for the iPad.


Thanks for the kind words, and enjoy the present!
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles