WIndows 3 Release: My Thoughts

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ScrivTrex
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Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:10 am Post

It seems like they keep pushing out the release date of Scrivener 3 for Windows because they want to make sure they hammer out ANY AND ALL of the bugs. The most recent update post of its development stated this. This is a fool's errand in my opinion. You can't possibly create a "perfect" piece of software. No software is like that. If Microsoft or Adobe had that stubborn philosophy in developing their software, they would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. But even more important is the observation that if they keep fixing bugs, waiting for a perfect software for release, they'll never release it, for new bugs will always pop up. Just look at the beta testing subforum; bugs are being reported all the time! I would suggest that they just release Scrivener 3 for Windows now and then hammer out the smaller bugs in incremental updates.

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devinganger
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Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:17 am Post

ScrivTrex wrote:It seems like they keep pushing out the release date of Scrivener 3 for Windows because they want to make sure they hammer out ANY AND ALL of the bugs. The most recent update post of its development stated this.


Perhaps you are mis-interpreting or not clearly understanding what they said?

I don't recall anywhere that L&L said they are trying to be bug-free; however, there are still pieces of functionality missing in the Windows beta that should be there before release (although those gaps are closing all the time). At the same time, there are bugs they have already stated will not be able to be fixed until after the release, so they are clearly perform triage of bug severity vs. complexity to fix and addressing the ones that they can that they know would raise large numbers of support queries.
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DavidR
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Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:33 pm Post

ScrivTrex wrote:It seems like they keep pushing out the release date of Scrivener 3 for Windows because they want to make sure they hammer out ANY AND ALL of the bugs. The most recent update post of its development stated this. This is a fool's errand in my opinion. You can't possibly create a "perfect" piece of software. No software is like that. If Microsoft or Adobe had that stubborn philosophy in developing their software, they would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. But even more important is the observation that if they keep fixing bugs, waiting for a perfect software for release, they'll never release it, for new bugs will always pop up. Just look at the beta testing subforum; bugs are being reported all the time! I would suggest that they just release Scrivener 3 for Windows now and then hammer out the smaller bugs in incremental updates.

I note that this is also posted here. Please don't double post--it wastes everyone's time. Thank you.
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theswede
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Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:36 am Post

ScrivTrex wrote:It seems like they keep pushing out the release date of Scrivener 3 for Windows because they want to make sure they hammer out ANY AND ALL of the bugs.

No. It does not. It seems like they keep pushing he release date out because they want Scrivener 3 for Windows to be feature complete, which it at present is not.
There is no indication what so ever that they are trying to "hammer out ANY AND ALL of the bugs". On the contrary, triage is being done, and severe bugs are addressed while functionality is being added to bring the software to feature complete.

ScrivTrex wrote:The most recent update post of its development stated this.

No. It did not.

It's frustrating that Scrivener 3 for Windows is not done. It's even more frustrating that there is no Linux version which works with the iOS format of Scrivener projects. But making up deficits in the programmer's approach is not really helping anyone. They've got a rather thankless job replicating functionality which MacOS includes, but which Windows does not include since that would make it too easy to compete with Microsoft Office.
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jesuslpgc
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Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:52 am Post

ScrivTrex wrote:It seems like they keep pushing out the release date of Scrivener 3 for Windows because they want to make sure they hammer out ANY AND ALL of the bugs. The most recent update post of its development stated this. This is a fool's errand in my opinion. You can't possibly create a "perfect" piece of software. No software is like that. If Microsoft or Adobe had that stubborn philosophy in developing their software, they would have gone bankrupt a long time ago. But even more important is the observation that if they keep fixing bugs, waiting for a perfect software for release, they'll never release it, for new bugs will always pop up. Just look at the beta testing subforum; bugs are being reported all the time! I would suggest that they just release Scrivener 3 for Windows now and then hammer out the smaller bugs in incremental updates.


I think an apology it's in order.

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MrBeardie
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Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:07 pm Post

I've ignored this flame war so far but this post needs to be addressed.

ScrivTrex wrote:You can't possibly create a "perfect" piece of software.

Wrong. It is possible, it's just that nobody seems to want to take the time and trouble to do so.

ScrivTrex wrote:If Microsoft or Adobe had that stubborn philosophy in developing their software, they would have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

I'm afraid you lose credibility by using as examples two of the worst software producers on the planet. Each of them routinely releases new versions with the full knowledge that it has major bugs and vulnerabilities. And I dare say that we would all be better off if they did indeed go bankrupt and allow better software companies a chance to flourish.

ScrivTrex wrote:...for new bugs will always pop up.

Again, wrong. They're not new bugs that somehow magically just "pop up", they're merely bugs that had not previously been detected.

Perhaps I should give you the benefit of doubt, as it would appear you're not a programmer, nor have ever had any direct exposure to the software industry. I just find it hard to ignore people pushing this kind of nonsense, which is every bit as ludicrous as that which the OP is pushing.
Running Scrivener for Windows on Linux Mint 18.3

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devinganger
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Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:52 am Post

MrBeardie wrote:
ScrivTrex wrote:...for new bugs will always pop up.

Again, wrong. They're not new bugs that somehow magically just "pop up", they're merely bugs that had not previously been detected.

Perhaps I should give you the benefit of doubt, as it would appear you're not a programmer, nor have ever had any direct exposure to the software industry.


Perhaps you should not admonish someone for not being a programmer if you're not willing to acknowledge the fact that bug regressions (bugs that were previously fixed, but a later fix re-introduces the old flawed behavior) and new bugs commonly get introduced as the result of bug fixes. Both happen all the time, and both are the result of the same thing: software engineering and design, like *all* engineering disciplines, are the product of the art of compromise. All non-trivial software contains bugs; the question is what is their scope vs. impact. If you have a rare bug that is basically an annoyance, that is unlikely to get fixed. Even the Apollo and Space Shuttle software programs, which were developed under some of the most rigorous development and testing regimes known to man, had bugs. It's just that the potential impacts were so severe, NASA spent the money on hella good testing and caught almost all of them.
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laurpr2
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Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:38 am Post

theswede wrote:
ScrivTrex wrote:It seems like they keep pushing out the release date of Scrivener 3 for Windows because they want to make sure they hammer out ANY AND ALL of the bugs.

No. It does not. It seems like they keep pushing he release date out because they want Scrivener 3 for Windows to be feature complete, which it at present is not.


What does this mean? Do you think they are going to add additional features to the Windows version that don't currently exist in the beta (for instance, linguistic/dialogue focus, currently in the Mac version)?

Based on the recent beta updates, it seems more like they are trying to fix existing bugs--not introduce new features. (And that seems smart, because while I'm sure we'd all love additional features, I personally would love an official release more. Additional features can always be rolled out later.)

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devinganger
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Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:17 am Post

laurpr2 wrote:What does this mean?


Last I knew, for example, not all of the functionality of the Compiler (as compared to the Mac 3.0 release) was yet wired into place, even though the UI had already been created. Each release has included more notes describing additional functionality that is now there.
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Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:56 am Post

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theswede
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Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:30 pm Post

laurpr2 wrote:What does this mean?


It means that things like opening and saving files from Mac and iOS projects need to work 100%, and that things like compile are working completely. Right now it appears that compile, for example, has more than just bugs and actually chunks missing under the hood. But that is an observation from the results, not inside knowledge of how the code looks.

laurpr2 wrote:Do you think they are going to add additional features to the Windows version that don't currently exist in the beta (for instance, linguistic/dialogue focus, currently in the Mac version)?


No. The features I am talking about are the really truly basic things expected - and required - from a Windows Scrivener 3. It is a very hard requirement that compatibility between Scrivener running on different platforms is high, and especially that basic things like opening and saving file and compiling works. Without those, collaboration will be incredibly difficult, and that will be a showstopper for just about any professional use of the software.

For most people who do not care about those things, and only work alone, or between iOS and Windows, the Beta seems to already be doing well. I expect it is also rather good at working with the Mac version, though I have not been able to test that myself yet. But compile is definitely not there yet. Again, for me that doesn't matter much, I do not use Scrivener's compile other than as an intermediate step (getting a markdown file), so for me it works. But I can see why it's nowhere near enough for professional level use.
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Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:20 am Post

pigfender wrote:76762560_10157665271313764_3439256742297337856_n.jpg
https://www.facebook.com/PearlsComic/

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rivermonster
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Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:28 am Post

TheBard wrote:My thoughts on downloading yet another Beta after being promised, and paying for, a program.

You need to make the Windows side as equally and justifiably important to you and your company as the Mac side of the operation is. You haven't, and thus you don't have a product to sell, only a promise. Some might call this fraud, as it certainly borders on it.

Good luck. I'm still waiting.


Trust me, Windows has always been and will ALWAYS be a second class citizen to this company. No matter the dialogue and fanboi defenses for this nonsense in the pages of responses, you'll find that this is true for the entire time that Scrivener for Windows has been out. The features always lag, and the support will always be lagging behind issues and innovation on the Mac. You do NOT need to take my word, any research into this will show you that it is true and has always been the case.

LL will give you lots of lip service about how important the Windows version is but, look at their actions NOT their words.

This also reminds me of the exact same type of issue with the iOS app. For the longest time they maintained there was no point to an iPad version of Scrivener, and then they said it was too hard to develop one, then they failed so badly with the first attempt to develop Scrivener for the iPad that they had to completely scrap it, and tagged on another year or two of delay and talk about how it'll come...

Bottom line is, fortunately for us Windows users there are now open-source free alternatives to Scrivener including Manuskript, Quoll Writer, and Wavemaker. There are more than that, but those are notable free ones. Other paid and freemium competitors have arisen as well.

I am STILL a Scrivener user but am looking to transition over to Manuskript. However, because I've been working in Scrivener so long I'm still there due to sunk cost until I finish the current novel. At that point, though I'm moving--the clear message to Windows users that they're not a priority for LL as evidenced by failing for the umpteenth year to have parity with Mac is clear. Years ago when there was nothing like Scrivener available I'd have stuck with it. Now--thanks for making up my mind LL!

Again, don't take my word for it, truly look over the years for saying "customers don't know anything we'll do what we want and you'll like it" with regards to both iOS IPad Scrivener and Windows versions. Opinions are just that but the facts and their track record won't go away. I've paid for and used extensively the Mac Version, Windows Version, and the iPad version of Scrivener. The charge to move up to 3 will be the break from this company that I've been putting off for a long time--hopefully in another few years they'll change their ways or get bought out and run with a customer focus instead of an "our way or the highway" style they've always used.

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Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:57 am Post

Not sure if you're aware of the beta @rivermonster, but just in case: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=40621

Manuskript looks very very ... familiar :D . Interesting to note that it has been in beta/development for almost 4 years. Making software like that must be difficult!

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Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:22 pm Post

Yes, there are plenty of similar programs out there these days. Most (all?) of them focus on only one very narrow aspect of writing, like novels—Scrivener remains one of the few that strives to be a general purpose writing platform. If you find one that fits how you write and isn’t as anger-stimulating for you as our way of doing things is, then go for it!

As for actions, if someone like me who normally works exclusively in Mac space has spent the past 3/4s of this year almost entirely working with the Windows team is “lip service” and not “action” then I suppose I can see why you’re so angry. I’d be angry, if I knew I was going about it so wrong. :lol:

P.S. Since it has been a few pages back now (and thus doesn’t exist), this is probably a good point to remind everyone about the thread rules here: don’t attack the writer, debate the ideas—or just ignore it. Not every angry post needs a retort. We can take criticism just fine.
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