WIndows 3 Release: My Thoughts

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Ensorcell
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:33 am Post

I think that what most people are feeling is frustrated. I too purchased the Windows version in expectation of Version 3 coming out soon. Did we buy the software before the Ver 3 release with knowledge that it was not yet ready? YES. Absolutely. But... When I purchased it , the web site insinuated, led me to believe, that version 3 for windows would be released before the end of the year. That was 2018. Now here is it well over 10 months after the suggested release date and it is still not available. They have done nothing, that I know of, that was legal wrong. However to give the belief, the hope, that the product would be released soon was misleading. In my experience once a product has gone into beta testing and/or is expected to release on a certain date, then it should be relatively soon if not before that date. 10 months or more later is excessive. Hence the reason many of us are unhappy about the situation.

I have worked in the computer industry for most of my working life. I can honestly say that if I was 10 months or more late in finishing a product or meeting a deadline I would most likely have been fired.

Scrivener Ver 3 was release on the macOS on the 20th of November 2017. That was almost 2 years ago. At that same time the best version for Windows was 1.9.7 which was released 6th of Oct 2016. The next update for windows was not until June 15 2018. It took 1 1/2 years to go from 1.9.7 to 1.9.8. That alone makes a statement.

When does someone draw a line and start throwing resources at getting Version 3 for Windows completed?

The web site currently stated "We expect to release Scrivener 3 for Windows later in 2019." Remember when I purchased it it stated 2018. Will we still be waiting here next year looking at a statement that states 2020? Time will tell.

Sc
Scribhneoir
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:43 am Post

kewms wrote: There have also been some recent critical updates to the release version of Scrivener for Windows. Are those also "disheartening?"


Actually ... yes.

Because those half-dozen critical updates are to fix a licensing issue that for some reason only affects Windows users and also because those half-dozen fixes haven't permanently solved the problem. People were reporting a recurrence of the 3-and-6 threat within two days of the latest fix and there were a couple of people who reported being dumped back into trial mode. Sorry, but I do find this disheartening, even though I've been fortunate enough to not have had an issue since the 2-and-4 threat days.

Sc
Scribhneoir
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:52 am Post

kewms wrote:
jesuslpgc wrote:3. 1.9 it's a product marginally cheaper but greatly lacking when compared to Mac's v3. Windows dimes are as good as Mac's- Products should be something similar and by golly after almost three years they've had time enough to deliver. I don't think nobody does is harmed by venting their impatience... a way to remind the good people of Literature and Latte that they made a promise.


Where are you getting "almost three years" from? Mac Scrivener 3 was released in November, 2017.

Katherine


Probably from the fact that in 2016 you announced there would be no more free updates for 1.9 because 3.0 was right around the corner. Fair enough, but it's been three years since that announcement and all that can be said for a Windows release is that you're right on track to miss all of 2019 as well.

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kewms
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:07 am Post

Well, there've also been four free updates to Scrivener 1.9 since then. Which I assume the people using it welcomed.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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devinganger
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:21 am Post

Synth wrote:was that useful or constructive?


You don't feel that it's constructive when someone says you're cute? I personally find it very constructive for my self-esteem, but your mileage may vary, I guess.
Last edited by devinganger on Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

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devinganger
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:27 am Post

Ensorcell wrote:I think that what most people are feeling is frustrated. I too purchased the Windows version in expectation of Version 3 coming out soon. Did we buy the software before the Ver 3 release with knowledge that it was not yet ready? YES. Absolutely. But... When I purchased it , the web site insinuated, led me to believe, that version 3 for windows would be released before the end of the year. That was 2018. Now here is it well over 10 months after the suggested release date and it is still not available.


Why does everyone bring this point up like it's some sort of smoking gun? When that was the expected timeframe, that was the timeframe everyone (including L&L) expected. Nobody is happy about how long it has taken, least of all the devs and support folks. I can promise they are all far more unhappy about that necessity than anyone who comes to post a self-important screed here on the forums about how unhappy they are.

Ensorcell wrote:In my experience once a product has gone into beta testing and/or is expected to release on a certain date, then it should be relatively soon if not before that date. 10 months or more later is excessive. Hence the reason many of us are unhappy about the situation.


Oh, you're cute too. Pop quiz: how long did Google keep Gmail in beta?

When the open beta testing for Scrivener 3.x started, they told us explicitly that the program was not feature complete and that it would take as long as it took. They gave us an estimate of how long they thought that would be. But many people out there see a date or ETA and take it as gospel truth instead of an estimate.
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Life has a way of moving you past wants and hopes

As
Astaff
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:28 am Post

Scribhneoir wrote:
Probably from the fact that in 2016 you announced there would be no more free updates for 1.9 because 3.0 was right around the corner. Fair enough, but it's been three years since that announcement and all that can be said for a Windows release is that you're right on track to miss all of 2019 as well.


L&L have acknowledged they are behind with more challenges than anticipated with V3, however it is already VERY useable and seems close to release.

You've expressed your displeasure, why keep flogging a dead horse? We all know it's late, we're all chomping at the bit, but from my perspective sick of the endless people piling on top with their 5c worth of displeasure.

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DavidR
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:50 pm Post

I think the divide we're seeing is between long-time and relatively long-time Scrivener users (like me), on the one hand, and people who bought the program a year or so ago.

The former have been around long enough to get to know Lit & Lat and its staff, and appreciate their dedication, integrity, and hard work. We're disappointed and chagrined about how long v. 3 is taking; but we also know how small a shop it is, how unwilling they are to ship an advanced beta as a finished product, and how useful either v. 1.9 or the advanced beta of v. 3 actually is.

The latter, as ensorcell exemplifies, bought a program that they thought was going to be updated to v. 3 in the very near future, based on statements L&L was making at the time. Those statements were regrettable and regrettably off-target, and L&L has regretted them, publicly and more than once. But that doesn't change the fact that they were made, and that they raised certain expectations in new customers.

These two viewpoints reflect two different experiences, and I think we ought to be able to put down our pea shooters long enough to acknowledge that there is valid experience on both sides. Long-time users are not just being cultishly defensive; newer users are not just whining. And neither group is getting jack done that is worth anything while sniping and counter-sniping at the others (and do remember, it's just pea shooters).

Ensorcell's question "When does someone draw a line and start throwing resources at getting Version 3 for Windows completed?" seems reasonable, except that there just aren't any more resources to throw. Please do remember the pittance you paid for Scrivener. It's intentionally priced for starving artists to buy; but that means starving the development staff in turn.

Devinganger, you've helped countless people solve real, solvable problems on these forums (another thing that newcomers, focusing only on the release date issue, may not know). But IMO (note lack of H), snark like "self-important screed" and "Oh, you're cute too" is worse than unhelpful. Put tacks in your pea shooter if you want; just be careful not to inhale. (And don't try telling me I'm cute; I already know. :wink: )

Bottom line: very few people come here just to be aggravating: they're frustrated, they need help, they want to help. A little bit of considering the other person's perspective can go a long way toward (heh) de-visualizing whirled peas. :D
David
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What's the difference between a free lance and a loose cannon?

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devinganger
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:38 pm Post

DavidR wrote:Devinganger, you've helped countless people solve real, solvable problems on these forums (another thing that newcomers, focusing only on the release date issue, may not know). But IMO (note lack of H), snark like "self-important screed" and "Oh, you're cute too" is worse than unhelpful. Put tacks in your pea shooter if you want; just be careful not to inhale. (And don't try telling me I'm cute; I already know. :wink: )


But you *are* cute!

I try to be kind and helpful, I really do. It's not always my first instinct, and I have had to cultivate it as a deliberate choice over my adult life. Having said that, watching people jump into a community and ignore all of the context while only focusing on their own narrow sense of entitlement, and doing so while going out of their way to crap on people, is not behavior I will ever again let slide.

People who pride themselves on brutal honesty ("I'm not insulting you, I'm just stating facts") all too often spend so much time focusing on the "brutal" that "honesty" gets sacrificed. And I'm not down with that. If people are going to be bullies, I'm going to call them on it. If L&L don't like that, they can delete my account now.
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ta
takirks
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:18 pm Post

I have to be brutally honest... I think the people bitching about things relating to the release of 3.0 are hypocritical. If the L&L folks released a premature version as 3.0, then I'd be the one angry with them.

I find it actually refreshing that a software firm is actually doing the honest thing and acknowledging that what they have is not ready to go and serve as a tool for people to try to make a living with. Not many of the crooks in this industry (software) care about that minor point, and I find it amazing that L&L does. I'm actually more likely to continue to do business with them because of it.

I don't think many people appreciate just how messed-up a lot of similarly industry-specific bespoke software can get. I have to use cabinet design software and digital takeoff software nearly every day at work, and I'm here to tell you, y'all have no idea what "half-baked" looks like. When you lose a day's work to a known-yet-undocumented software bug that the technician tells you about in a bored, off-handed way...? Yeah. Probably a good thing none of the vendors I work with are within a casual drive, or I'd be in jail for assault.

Take your time, L&L. Get it right, then release it. I'll buy it, and I would even contribute to a fund to help pay for development on top of it. I wish more software developers and vendors had the ethics not to foist epic half-assery on their customers.

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DavidR
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:17 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
DavidR wrote:Devinganger, you've helped countless people solve real, solvable problems on these forums (another thing that newcomers, focusing only on the release date issue, may not know). But IMO (note lack of H), snark like "self-important screed" and "Oh, you're cute too" is worse than unhelpful. Put tacks in your pea shooter if you want; just be careful not to inhale. (And don't try telling me I'm cute; I already know. :wink: )


But you *are* cute!

I try to be kind and helpful, I really do. It's not always my first instinct, and I have had to cultivate it as a deliberate choice over my adult life. Having said that, watching people jump into a community and ignore all of the context while only focusing on their own narrow sense of entitlement, and doing so while going out of their way to crap on people, is not behavior I will ever again let slide.

People who pride themselves on brutal honesty ("I'm not insulting you, I'm just stating facts") all too often spend so much time focusing on the "brutal" that "honesty" gets sacrificed. And I'm not down with that. If people are going to be bullies, I'm going to call them on it. If L&L don't like that, they can delete my account now.

Thanks for this thoughtful response. I always appreciate when people are willing to be open enough to talk about their work on themselves. Me, I'm one of the most tactful people you'd ever meet; but I find that I can be shockingly ready to harangue people in an online venue like this. (I've gotten into some tussles on the Evernote forums.) Somehow the distancing effect of this sort of place lets my inner snark jerk make himself known. I think it is important to carefully craft not only posts here but their tone and speaking self. Heh heh, almost like being a writer.

Has anyone ever written an epistolary novel entirely in the form of online forum posts?
David
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What's the difference between a free lance and a loose cannon?

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ThomasHSteine
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:18 am Post

I am also anxiously awaiting Scrivener V3. I'm a relatively new user. I am impressed with my current v1.9. I use it almost daily.

I used to be in the frustration camp. Then I remembered my day job. I am a software developer. I've been doing this a long time. 42 years. If you are not a developer, you need to understand that this is a young industry. Other's (medical, agriculture, metalworking, shipping, law, writing) have been around for thousands of years. We developers are still trying to figure this all out. What does it mean to be a professional? What does it mean to make a commitment? How much should you commit to in advance? What is the right way to produce a product? Believe me when I say these are not easy questions and the answers are elusive at best. So far the only thing we know for sure is that you can have it good, fast, or cheap... and you can only pick two.

I know the frustration the L&L team is experiencing. You cannot say anything harsher than they are already saying to themselves. This is a creative act. They are keenly aware of your disappointment.

Please also understand that adding more programmers to the team is not likely to produce a positive result, especially if they are in the last mile. We all hope it is the last mile. But understand that they are aiming at a target that is moving. Developing a software product is almost always an act of discovery. They need something more valuable than the small amount we have paid for the working and sufficient v1.9. They need our support. Not a lot to ask really.

They also need to stay positively motivated. And that is a human-to-human thing. They know they have not met your expectations. "Clarifying" that will not get the job done faster or with high quality.

L&L, take the time to get it right. Take a day off if you are not already doing so. Clear your heads. The shortest distance is not a straight line. We will be there with you. If some users choose to walk away that's ok too. We'll be here to celebrate with you.

Regards,
THS
On a planet with a curved surface, the shortest distance between two points is not a straight line.

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DavidR
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:01 am Post

Brilliantly put, ThomasHSteine. Humane, broad of vision and broad of mind. Thank you! You encourage me to remain strongly in the mode of support and encouragement.

I especially appreciate the reminder "you can have it good, fast, or cheap... and you can only pick two." L&L have gone for good and cheap, and that cuts fast out of the picture.
David
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Windows 7 Pro 64-bit

What's the difference between a free lance and a loose cannon?

je
jesuslpgc
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:28 am Post

DavidR wrote:I think the divide we're seeing is between long-time and relatively long-time Scrivener users (like me), on the one hand, and people who bought the program a year or so ago.

The former have been around long enough to get to know Lit & Lat and its staff, and appreciate their dedication, integrity, and hard work. We're disappointed and chagrined about how long v. 3 is taking; but we also know how small a shop it is, how unwilling they are to ship an advanced beta as a finished product, and how useful either v. 1.9 or the advanced beta of v. 3 actually is.

The latter, as ensorcell exemplifies, bought a program that they thought was going to be updated to v. 3 in the very near future, based on statements L&L was making at the time. Those statements were regrettable and regrettably off-target, and L&L has regretted them, publicly and more than once. But that doesn't change the fact that they were made, and that they raised certain expectations in new customers.

These two viewpoints reflect two different experiences, and I think we ought to be able to put down our pea shooters long enough to acknowledge that there is valid experience on both sides. Long-time users are not just being cultishly defensive; newer users are not just whining. And neither group is getting jack done that is worth anything while sniping and counter-sniping at the others (and do remember, it's just pea shooters).

Ensorcell's question "When does someone draw a line and start throwing resources at getting Version 3 for Windows completed?" seems reasonable, except that there just aren't any more resources to throw. Please do remember the pittance you paid for Scrivener. It's intentionally priced for starving artists to buy; but that means starving the development staff in turn.

Devinganger, you've helped countless people solve real, solvable problems on these forums (another thing that newcomers, focusing only on the release date issue, may not know). But IMO (note lack of H), snark like "self-important screed" and "Oh, you're cute too" is worse than unhelpful. Put tacks in your pea shooter if you want; just be careful not to inhale. (And don't try telling me I'm cute; I already know. :wink: )

Bottom line: very few people come here just to be aggravating: they're frustrated, they need help, they want to help. A little bit of considering the other person's perspective can go a long way toward (heh) de-visualizing whirled peas. :D



Thanks for a well thought, balanced post.

je
jesuslpgc
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:31 am Post

devinganger wrote:
Synth wrote:was that useful or constructive?


You don't feel that it's constructive when someone says you're cute? I personally find it very constructive for my self-esteem, but your mileage may vary, I guess.


It seems that in the past you were a helpful and nice character in this forum. Sad that newcomers only seem to find this jaded, one-trick-pony façade.