A great program marred by critical flaws in core functionality.

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Sanguinius
Posts: 613
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:16 pm
Platform: Windows

Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:50 pm Post

griffin1101 wrote:Lunk, As I mentioned, I am a long time occasional user of Scrivener. I do own a copy so I feel I do have a right to comment in this forum. It annoys me when I see throw away comments and insulting behaviour directed at people who have genuine issues on any forums. A few people will always go on the front foot to defend this product rather than taking these issues onboard and then actually responding in an intelligent and professional manner.

As an aside, I am not going to respond to any replies that include thinly veiled insults and the usual excuses that are consistently thrown up by a few people when someone has a difference of opinion in this forum. I have no issues with this software or its developers and have used it off and on for years now. It is good for what you pay for it but it does have its limitations and it just doesn’t fit my workflow anymore...


If people have things they need help with, then they should go to the Technical Support portion of the forum and ask their question. 99% of the time, those questions are met with good-naturedness and a willingness to help. But this is the Feedback forum. The sole purpose of this forum is to give your opinion, right or wrong, good or bad, about the software. It's not meant to be used for questions and answers. People are supposed to come here and voice their pleasure or displeasure about whatever aspects of the software/experience that they feel the need to express.

However, that doesn't mean they're just given a free pass. Since it's the Feedback forum, other users have every right to voice their own feedback of the feedback given. That's how this works. Free enterprise and free communications dictate that your comments are fair game as soon as they're uttered/typed/entered/transcribed. The people that give snarky/hostile responses (and yes, they absolutely are, in many cases) are allowed to do so, just as people who have complaints are allowed to complain.

If you have a complaint, fine. Post it, and be glad of it. But don't think that your words are inviolable. Be aware that by treading into the waters of debate, you too will get wet.

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Amcmo
Posts: 132
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:49 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS

Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:54 pm Post

As an aside, I am not going to respond to any replies that include thinly veiled insults and the usual excuses that are consistently thrown up by a few people when someone has a difference of opinion in this forum


Ah, but you did, with that response, and that is a point made by a number of posters. The statement, ‘I’m out of here, you’re all horrible’ so often made yet the poster hangs to keep trying to have the final word, as if that makes their case and wins the argument.

Think for a moment. Read the title of this thread again. The OP is basically saying, good concept, but L&L screwed up on the implementation (because it doesn’t work the way I want it to).That insult isn’t even ‘thinly veiled’.

If the OP had said something like ‘great program, but is there room for this functionality’ or something similar, responses may well have been different. If suggestions for added/changed functionality had been made in the Wish board, again, response would have been very different, but the OP decided to throw a grenade in the room.

Reality, there are no ‘critical flaws’, just a program that is designed to work exactly as it does.

Again it goes back to a point made many times. Scrivener is what it is due to one man’s vision. It does not attempt to be all things to all men (or women). It has developed to what it is with input from users where L&L have decided a suggested function fits with/expands on that vision, but as Keith has said, it is not development by vote, and from what I see, certainly not by saying your program is fatally flawed unless you change it to work my way.

You’ve said you’ve moved on. Good for you. A more helpful statement, seeing as this is a discussion forum, might what to and a why. Someone did ask that Q, but no response.

You state as an owner of Scrivener you have a right to comment. Of course you do, just as every who disagrees has the right to respond. In fact, I don’t think there’s ever been any requirement to own Scrivener to post.

From where I’m sitting, it seems many who claim regular posters who disagree with them are insulting, that the forum is toxic..expect the right to make a statement such as the OP and others while expecting everyone else to agree or shut up. Sorry, but discussion doesn’t work that way.
Just a user, not connected in any way with the L&L team.

Opinions are the result of many years in IT and discussion with my dog.

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DavidR
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Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:21 am
Platform: Windows

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:08 am Post

griffin1101 wrote:The other thing is this whole "philosophy" concept, which often comes up as a defence by the Scrivener faithful. This airy-fairy idea of what the software was intended for is self-limiting and will obviously impact L&L sales. Pretty much all modern word processing (i.e. "writing") software is WYSIWYG. Professional writers want professionally written software with all the standard modern document editing and management features (mostly based on MS Word; that's just how it is) and they will be happy to pay for it.

kewms wrote:Certainly for some writers and some kinds of writing, formatting is critically important. Whether those writers will be happy with Scrivener largely depends on whether they are willing to defer final formatting to the end -- Scrivener's philosophy -- or need to see the final "look" evolve as they write.
But for many other writers, formatting is either not an issue at all during the creation phase, or actively distracting. Those writers are Scrivener's core audience.

I have to say that I don't see why "what the software was intended for" is "airy-fairy." If someone tries to drive a nail with the handle of a screwdriver, good luck to them, but there's nothing airy-fairy about a screwdriver having a defined, intended purpose. As far as that goes, MS Word has an intended purpose too, as seen in its inclusion in a suite called "Microsoft Office." It works well for WYSIWYG formatting, but is not very good at some other aspects of the writing process.

And there is a writing process, which varies from writer to writer, as Katherine says. For some select few, the text may just appear in their brain from beginning to end and need only to be formatted on a page; some like to see exactly what the page will look like as they write; some write in stream of consciousness style; and for all of these Word will do well. But some get ideas and do research in nonlinear sequences, and need ways of organizing these and relating them to one another that Word just can't manage--it, pardon me, isn't intended to.

So, call it a philosophy, call it a methodology, call it whatever. I'll gladly do formatting and final revising in something else, and use Scriv for what it does best.
David
Scrivener for Windows Version 1.9.9
Windows 7 Pro 64-bit

What's the difference between a free lance and a loose cannon?