A great program marred by critical flaws in core functionality.

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lunk
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Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:56 pm Post

EdgarO wrote:Having experienced a glitch with line break spacing during compiling using my free trial, these posts have helped me see that it’s not the right program for me.

If you had asked the forum how to fix your problem you would probably have got the help you needed to fix it.
Good luck with some other app.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

ca
canlin05
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Platform: Windows

Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:31 pm Post

lunk wrote:
EdgarO wrote:Having experienced a glitch with line break spacing during compiling using my free trial, these posts have helped me see that it’s not the right program for me.

If you had asked the forum how to fix your problem you would probably have got the help you needed to fix it.
Good luck with some other app.


I just cannot get over the condescending attitude of both the users and Scrivener 'people' in this forum. Absolute bullshit and has completely turned me off using Scrivener. I don't even care about v.3 anymore, or how good it may or not be. Users succinctly and eloquently voice there opinions or offer valid feedback and this is the treatment they get? No way. Uninstalling now and moving on. You should all learn how to communicate with customers and fellow users. Your pushing back against anything even slightly critical of the software shows me that your cult-like behaviour is really a little scary. Buh-bye.

Sy
Synth
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Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:38 pm Post

canlin05 wrote:
lunk wrote:
EdgarO wrote:Having experienced a glitch with line break spacing during compiling using my free trial, these posts have helped me see that it’s not the right program for me.

If you had asked the forum how to fix your problem you would probably have got the help you needed to fix it.
Good luck with some other app.


I just cannot get over the condescending attitude of both the users and Scrivener 'people' in this forum. Absolute bullshit and has completely turned me off using Scrivener. I don't even care about v.3 anymore, or how good it may or not be. Users succinctly and eloquently voice there opinions or offer valid feedback and this is the treatment they get? No way. Uninstalling now and moving on. You should all learn how to communicate with customers and fellow users. Your pushing back against anything even slightly critical of the software shows me that your cult-like behaviour is really a little scary. Buh-bye.


They say be the change you want to see. Lunk simply told you that if you had posted for help, we would've helped. He's remarking that there's a flaw in your logic. If you just encounter a problem and don't try to fix it, instead opting to go on the forum and tell everyone you are moving on because of some bugs, of course we'll let you know that the energy you spent could've been better spent.
But yeah, accusing people of cult-like behaviors and flippantly announcing your departure is not the best attitude to have, in conversation as well as in trying to get help.
Now, if you want to change your mind, you can post in the appropriate forums, and I'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to help.

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DavidR
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Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:59 pm Post

Sigh. At the risk of fouling this up even worse.... @Synth, canlin05 was not the person Lunk was responding to; they just popped in to comment on Lunk's style of commenting to EdgarO--who was responding to the OP's (7th7andwich) decision to bail on Scrivener (because it didn't work as they'd thought it would and wanted it to), and agreeing with them. It was the OP who introduced the suggestion of cult-like behavior.

EdgarO just popped in to say that he had a problem that he felt made Scrivener unusable for his purposes, to diss a bit, and to announce that he was moving on--without ever asking to see whether it was possible to do what he wanted, or even fully explaining the problem. Lunk responded a bit snarkily but with a valid point. canlin05 popped in to say they won't use the program because of perceived 'tude form people on this forum, which makes no sense to me at all.

People who like Scrivener and find it useful for their purposes do sometimes get defensive around here when people post saying that the program doesn't act like some kind of software which it isn't. I get that defensiveness. But honestly, it's the Web, people put on crabby personas when they post sometimes. Or take off their non-crabby personas, whichever. If the program works for you use it. If you have a problem, ask for help and you'll get help, not 'tude. If you think the program ought to be a different program--there are dating apps for that, I think.
David
Scrivener for Windows Version 1.9.9
Windows 7 Pro 64-bit

What's the difference between a free lance and a loose cannon?

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Jaysen
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Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:03 pm Post

EdgarO
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Only one post and it's in this thread. That's interesting :)
Jaysen

I have a wife and 2 kids that I can only attribute to a wiggle, a giggle, and the realization that she was out of my league so I might as well be happy with her as a friend. 26 years marriage later, I can't imagine life without her. -Me 10/7/09

ImageImage

Sy
Synth
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Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:46 pm Post

DavidR wrote:Sigh. At the risk of fouling this up even worse.... @Synth, canlin05 was not the person Lunk was responding to; they just popped in to comment on Lunk's style of commenting to EdgarO--who was responding to the OP's (7th7andwich) decision to bail on Scrivener (because it didn't work as they'd thought it would and wanted it to), and agreeing with them. It was the OP who introduced the suggestion of cult-like behavior.


Oh hahaha you're totally right, my mistake. :)

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lunk
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Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:29 am Post

DavidR wrote:Lunk responded a bit snarkily

Huh? :shock:
What in my answer was snarky?
It wasn’t meant as irony, if that’s what you think. It was meant literally what it says.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

dg
dgmcalgary
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Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:14 pm Post

kewms wrote:We strongly encourage all users to take advantage of our extensive free trial before purchasing, for exactly the reasons demonstrated in this thread. We understand that not everyone wants to work in the way Scrivener is designed, and that's okay.

The Windows Scrivener 3 beta can be downloaded here:
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=40621

I'm well aware of the differences between the Mac and Windows versions. It's literally my job. Many of those differences will be resolved by the release of Windows Scrivener 3.

If you don't want to evaluate beta software, that's a completely legitimate position. But it does make your comments somewhat irrelevant, as they pertain to a product that is already being superseded.

If you're going to complain about "critical flaws in core functionality," it seems to me useful to understand what the core functionality *is*. Hence my suggestion of the Tutorial.

Katherine


Katherine, I admire your patience. You must get tired of this thread. Seems it's posted every two weeks or so.

In any event - keep up the good work. I'm a huge fan of the software and honestly enjoy the learning process and the result.

gr
griffin1101
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Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:55 am Post

Hi All

I have been a Scrivener user off and on for a number of years now and do check back here from time to time to see what's new. Consider the following to be constructive criticism.

Over the last 12 to 18 months this forum has just become more and more toxic. If I were a professional writer looking for decent well-priced software there is no way I would even consider Scrivener based on this Feedback forum.

There seems to be little help in response to people posting (what they conceive to be serious) issues or asking questions here anymore. If anyone points out flaws/defects in the product, instead of courteous and professional replies they are often met with a barrage of useless responses, negative comments, condescension, thinly veiled sarcasm/irony or outright abuse from the Scrivener faithful.

Instead of replying with a very vague RTFM, which insults most people, why not reply politely with a page reference in the manual or link to a particular tutorial (if you think it will help the poster). If the feature doesn't exist, redirect the poster to the correct "feature request" forum. Simple and effective good customer support...

There is a great lack of courtesy and professionalism being displayed in this forum by both by the responders and L&L support in some cases. You can suggest that people try the beta version; however, no professional writer would/should ever consider using a beta version of any software for their paid work. There is simply too much risk involved (having worked in the IT industry for over 30 years I know the consequences that occur when work is lost due to user errors or faulty software!). Also, given the vast timeline for the new Windows v3 release, why even bother suggesting people try the beta until a firm release date is made available. As mentioned by the OP, a beta/development version of any software is useless to a professional writer.

The other thing is this whole "philosophy" concept, which often comes up as a defence by the Scrivener faithful. This airy-fairy idea of what the software was intended for is self-limiting and will obviously impact L&L sales. Pretty much all modern word processing (i.e. "writing") software is WYSIWYG. To state that this is in conflict with some imposed "philosophy" is like shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to acquiring new customers. Professional writers want professionally written software with all the standard modern document editing and management features (mostly based on MS Word; that's just how it is) and they will be happy to pay for it. Anything beyond that is just candy that will help sell the product.

Personally, I believe that software like Scrivener is becoming more and more outdated as new visual storytelling applications come online (like Causality). This is where I would be looking if I were looking for modern professional writing software. The old index card mentality for story development is outdated and counterintuitive (you can disagree if you like but the latest advances in brain science would indicate otherwise). In the meantime (professionally) I continue to use "industry standard" writing software, which is backed by the professional developers and support engineers, industry, and a massive user-base. Tried and tested.

So, in future when you reply to someone with questions or problems, please, please re-read your reply before hitting "submit" and simply ask yourself: "how would I feel if someone replied to my (major) problems like this?". Does your reply make you cringe? If so, rethink it…

These are just my observations and suggestions as a long-term occasional Scrivener user and member of this forum so you shouldn’t feel offended if you have done the right think. Good luck with Scrivener, and I mean that in a nice way. I have already moved on.

Am
Amcmo

Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:41 am Post

There seems to be little help in response to people posting (what they conceive to be serious) issues or asking questions here anymore. If anyone points out flaws/defects in the product, instead of courteous and professional replies they are often met with a barrage of useless responses, negative comments, condescension, thinly veiled sarcasm/irony or outright abuse from the Scrivener faithful


I have to disagree with you.

Posters with questions and in need of assistance receive help from any number of forum members and the L&L staff.

People who (like yourself later in your post) who demand that L&L change Scrivener to suit them, or say that Scrivener is doomed etc, usually get a polite response pointing out their demand is not possible for technical reasons, or that it is just not the vision Keith has for Scrivener. (It is HIS company and program after all).

Where people start to push back is then the original poster refuses to accept the feedback, insisting their way is right, L&L are wrong, etc, accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being rude, fanboys etc.

I’ve lost count of the number of armchair coders insisting all L&L have to do is alter a few lines of code, employ more staff, punish staff for missed deadlines _ the list is endless. Often these people seem to be first time posters with a limited grasp of the complexities of software development, or just trolls.

Of course when they don’t get their way, they and their supporters accuse forum members and L&L staff of being rude etc. seems mirrors are in short supply in their study/office.

Sometimes, after the polite reply falls on unhearing ears, the blunt reply is ‘doing the right thing.’

Any person who trials Scrivener is welcome to decide it doesn’t suit their style or work process, and L&L staff (and forum members) have never complained when a poster has said that as a statement and not a threat.

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lunk
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Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:08 am Post

griffin1101 wrote:I have already moved on.

Why do you post in the Scrivener user forum, if you have moved on and now use other software?

(this is meant as a serious question, not irony, and it stems from my general curiosity about people's behaviour, and I hope that anyone reading this post will accept this; I am simply curious)
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

gr
griffin1101
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Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:51 pm Post

Lunk, As I mentioned, I am a long time occasional user of Scrivener. I do own a copy so I feel I do have a right to comment in this forum. It annoys me when I see throw away comments and insulting behaviour directed at people who have genuine issues on any forums. A few people will always go on the front foot to defend this product rather than taking these issues onboard and then actually responding in an intelligent and professional manner.

As an aside, I am not going to respond to any replies that include thinly veiled insults and the usual excuses that are consistently thrown up by a few people when someone has a difference of opinion in this forum. I have no issues with this software or its developers and have used it off and on for years now. It is good for what you pay for it but it does have its limitations and it just doesn’t fit my workflow anymore...

Ji
JimRac
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Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:52 pm Post

Hi griffin1101,

I disagree with your conclusions re: the responses in this thread, but (of course) you're entitled to your opinion.

griffin1101 wrote:In the meantime (professionally) I continue to use "industry standard" writing software, which is backed by the professional developers and support engineers, industry, and a massive user-base. Tried and tested.

If you don't mind, please share which software are you using?

Best,
Jim
I’m just a customer.

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kewms
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Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:26 pm Post

FWIW, I spent nearly two hours yesterday talking with another writer about tools and workflow and process.

Scrivener figured quite prominently in the conversation, as you might guess.

Formatting, the heart of the complaints in this thread, was barely mentioned.

Certainly for some writers and some kinds of writing, formatting is critically important. Whether those writers will be happy with Scrivener largely depends on whether they are willing to defer final formatting to the end -- Scrivener's philosophy -- or need to see the final "look" evolve as they write.

But for many other writers, formatting is either not an issue at all during the creation phase, or actively distracting. Those writers are Scrivener's core audience.

As I noted upthread, we encourage all potential users to take advantage of our extensive free trial. If Scrivener turns out not to be your cup of tea, that's fine. It's not a moral failing on your part, or ours, it's just a different way of doing things. Writing process is a very personal thing. Where threads like this run into trouble is when people assert that their approach is the best and only way, and people who disagree jump up to, well, disagree.

As a company, we wish all writers the best, whether they choose to use Scrivener or not.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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lunk
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Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:31 pm Post

griffin1101 wrote:It annoys me when I see throw away comments and insulting behaviour directed at people who have genuine issues on any forums. A few people will always go on the front foot to defend this product rather than taking these issues onboard and then actually responding in an intelligent and professional manner.

As an aside, I am not going to respond to any replies that include thinly veiled insults and the usual excuses that are consistently thrown up by a few people when someone has a difference of opinion in this forum.

Interesting... you obviously read something else in the posts than I do.

I re-read the thread and I don’t find any thinly veiled insults or insulting behaviour. But maybe that’s because I’m not a native English speaker, so I miss some of the finer points of some comments. I find most responses to the original post to be both intelligent and professional, in spite of the OP being less so.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, running different OS.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS