Commitment & responsibility...

[Prometheus]

I expected nothing less from the two of you. Thanks for fulfilling that expectation.

[lunk]

You and others have no idea just how badly you come across

Have you read your own posts, and thought about how they come across?

[ZeroDrawn]

Not being a native speaker of English I'm pondering.

What's the time frame here? Up to 3 weeks and 6 days? Not a month. Or having said month(s) 3 weeks and 6 days... I mean. After the initial anger, unjustified on my part, perhaps, and I'm not a programmer, perhaps it's not so much an issue of programmer and their skill but the programming language, or the compiler, or the platform their writing their code on. I hope once they reach the V3 plateu , they can have a breather and plan better strategies and tools for the future.

I don't know the timeframe, personally. The blog said "I do believe we are a matter of a few weeks away now - I'm certainly not talking months. " That is, of course, not a promise, but an earnest belief, I feel.

However, if it ends up being many months, I feel an in-depth explanation of what problems they are facing as a blog post would be nice. It would soften the blow of these foggy release dates and would be the closest thing I could say that anyone with a V3 license would be "owed" in exchange for continued gentle patience.

Just another thing I'd like to note - I absolutely love Scrivener 1.9 . I have a license that predates the introduction of V3 inclusion, and I'm fine with that - I'm eager and waiting to give L&L more money for V3. Its something I look forward to.

I want V3, a whole bunch, but aside from checking the website every so often, I hadn't been thinking of it much and placed it upon the back-burner as a "Check if its out, it isn't, move on, check again in a few months." sort of thing.

It was the blog post that really got my hopes up, and subsequently let them down. I don't want any sort of punishment, or anyone to be affected negatively or to lose their jobs (my 2c to the whole "personal responsibility" thing).

Its just I want to make it clear that I wasn't bothered by waiting before that blog post said there wouldn't be anymore waiting. Then it bothered me when more waiting happened.

I'm still super interested in V3, and will still buy it whenever it comes out. Just, if the followup blog post ends up also not matching reality, I would appreciate a detailed subsequent blog as to why it ended up that way.

I only speak for myself, and nobody owes me anything. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

[Jinx8evr]

I was about to recommend L&L products to a larger group of peeps who may not yet all know about these tools, and I thought I'd quickly check to make sure all updated versions will be available this weekend as promised again and again and again.

It is quite frustrating that Scrivener 3 for Windows is taking so long to come out, however when people say that the beta is pretty close to the complete product, they mean pretty close. I think it would be worth downloading and trying the beta. I can't remember if the Beta is free to use (I think it is). But it isn't a permanent product and will expire when they decide to release the Scrivener 3 (whenever that will eventually be). So you could still recommend the product to your friends/acquaintances although they'll probably have to be warned of the unreliable release dates (which I understand is due to some finetuning or something, as the beta is working pretty well for me so far). Also not sure if someone has already said this to you.

[Prometheus]

You and others have no idea just how badly you come across

Have you read your own posts, and thought about how they come across?

I wrote them, so yes, I have. Unlike you, I'm not calling people "ranters" or "complainers" or "whiners" or "failed writers".

"Having followed the discussions in the user forum for quite some time I wonder if the true problem has nothing to do with the differences between the two versions. The problem is that the ranters have problems writing, and instead of realizing that the problem lies within themselves they want to have some external factor to blame.

When Win Scrivener 3 is officially released, what will you then blame for your inability to finish that novel you have been working on for so long?"

I am, however, pointing out that anyone who even dreams of saying something with even a whiff of VALID criticism gets taken down by certain people in this forum, and may get a rude remark by someone representing the company itself. You think that's ok? Good for you. I don't.

[lunk]

I am, however, pointing out that anyone who even dreams of saying something with even a whiff of VALID criticism gets taken down by certain people in this forum, and may get a rude remark by someone representing the company itself.

Yes, of course.
What is ”valid criticism”?
In what way are posts that only present the poster’s personal feelings of disappointment, or anger, or frustration that Win version 3 is not officially released, examples of ”valid criticism”?

[TadeoBlanco]

The problem is that the ranters have problems writing, and instead of realizing that the problem lies within themselves they want to have some external factor to blame.

When Win Scrivener 3 is officially released, what will you then blame for your inability to finish that novel you have been working on for so long?"

I am, however, pointing out that anyone who even dreams of saying something with even a whiff of VALID criticism gets taken down by certain people in this forum, and may get a rude remark by someone representing the company itself. You think that's ok? Good for you. I don't.

That’s rich. Calling those who choose to defend L&L ranters when the whole discussion started with a number of ‘rants’ about L&L, demands for consequences etc.

A couple of those you are accusing of ranting were criticised for saying that those who were complaining were using it as an excuse for not writing and now you are levelling the same accusation against those who chose to object to some of you and other posts. Think about it, we are the ones who are quite happily working with Beta 3 and while wishing for a speedy release acknowledge the challenges of development. So you claim doesn’t pass the smell test.

valid criticism is welcomed by L&L and staff (and no, Katherine was NOT rude) but the hysteria from some who attacked L&L, demanded consequences, demanded a change to a whole new dev platform etc was not valid criticism, it was a dummy spit.

Do I think V3 is taking longer than I would like, Yes!

But I am not an L&L staffer, I’m not privy to the challenges. Rather than throw my dummy and toys out of the cot and scream the house down I prefer to try in some tiny way to assist the development with feedback on actual issues I encounter in the beta use.

[sidderke]

As a user of the Mac version, I respect the frustration of people waiting for their Windows V3. As long as they do it respectfully, it's fine.

I think Keith put out a beautiful response in this thread, kudos for that.

I just posted to say to the people being dissapointed with the missing deadlines: I understand the pain (we were waiting long for the iOS version as well - when you love a product and you get excited about it, waiting and frustrations also hit you double as hard) but it's maybe not bad to keep in mind that Apple, the richest company in the world with a probably *very* bright team of hundreds (if not thousands) of coders, is also missing deadlines of their iOS 13 software, pushing back a lot of features to 13.1 and 13.2. They did this the past 2 years as well. Software is complex, and is getting more complex all the time. Admittedly as a non-coder, I can't imagine the job to build all the tools for Windows to make a Scrivener version work, if you see how many tools Apple gives their developers for free (as many people here have pointed out - a lot of great Mac-only software is made by developers who always profess they could only make it work because Apple has made a lot of work easy for them).
Again, a 200 billion dollar company, asking thousands of dollars for their hardware, has been missing a lot of their software deadlines the past years. It's not an excuse, because L&L are definitely to blame for the frustration, but think about their scale, the niche audience of their product, and them asking a one-time fee of just a couple of ten's of euros for their product. It must be hard at times with a lot of enthusiasm and idealism involved sometimes.

I also think we should keep vile comments to a minimum or zero if possible (it's never possible), from both sides of the argument. We are all passionate about the product. These things happen. As someone who is not affected by these delays, I do feel for the fans being disappointed (again) but I also feel for the developers. I'm sure they feel bad enough as it is already, they didn't want this to happen, and in these (hopefully) final weeks of testing and finishing, I think morally and mentally they could use a lot of cheerleading and a good boost of support instead of people attacking each other on the forum. So they can feel energetic about the wonderful project again, which is probably not easy in such difficult times of setbacks.

[TadeoBlanco]

Apple, the richest company in the world with a probably *very* bright team of hundreds (if not thousands) of coders, is also missing deadlines of their iOS 13 software, pushing back a lot of features to 13.1 and 13.2. They did this the past 2 years as well. Software is complex, and is getting more complex all the time.

A very good point, not to mention that Microsoft, another almost trillion dollar company has screwed up pretty much every Win 10 upgrade over the past couple of years with bricked PC’s and far greater issues than there are in Scrivener. What has been the public reaction to that? A shrug of the shoulders and ‘it’s Microsoft’.

Seems we hold a small band of enthusiasts to a higher standard and demand more accountability than we do of MS, Adobe or Apple.

Keep on rockin’ Keith and co..

[Prometheus]

The problem is that the ranters have problems writing, and instead of realizing that the problem lies within themselves they want to have some external factor to blame.

When Win Scrivener 3 is officially released, what will you then blame for your inability to finish that novel you have been working on for so long?"

I am, however, pointing out that anyone who even dreams of saying something with even a whiff of VALID criticism gets taken down by certain people in this forum, and may get a rude remark by someone representing the company itself. You think that's ok? Good for you. I don't.

That’s rich. Calling those who choose to defend L&L ranters when the whole discussion started with a number of ‘rants’ about L&L, demands for consequences etc.

You really, really need to brush up on your reading comprehension. THE POINT is that I, myself, am not calling people "ranters". That part - in quotes - is from lunk, being just as defensive and cultish as you are being to anyone who dares to raise a criticism in this forum.

A couple of those you are accusing of ranting were criticised for saying that those who were complaining were using it as an excuse for not writing and now you are levelling the same accusation against those who chose to object to some of you and other posts. Think about it, we are the ones who are quite happily working with Beta 3 and while wishing for a speedy release acknowledge the challenges of development. So you claim doesn’t pass the smell test.

I am quite happy working with the beta releases. I've no idea why you're so obtuse about what I am writing versus what others are writing - like someone "threatening" L&:'s business, which you attributed to me instead of the person who actually said anything remotely like it, or like someone trying to call me out about "the tone" of my posts when he's one of your comrades in arms, and running down people who offer up anything less than a glowing opinion.

valid criticism is welcomed by L&L and staff (and no, Katherine was NOT rude) but the hysteria from some who attacked L&L, demanded consequences, demanded a change to a whole new dev platform etc was not valid criticism, it was a dummy spit.

Yeah, dude, she IS rude from time to time. it's unprofessional, as is allowing the dogpile cohort here pile on people. I found a quote from her - ironically - that said the rule of the forum is to "be nice". Perhaps L&L should start with her and include the usual suspects who are doing L&L zero favors with their actions.

[Prometheus]

I am, however, pointing out that anyone who even dreams of saying something with even a whiff of VALID criticism gets taken down by certain people in this forum, and may get a rude remark by someone representing the company itself.

Yes, of course.
What is ”valid criticism”?
In what way are posts that only present the poster’s personal feelings of disappointment, or anger, or frustration that Win version 3 is not officially released, examples of ”valid criticism”?

Why is it NOT valid criticism? L&L (finally) gave a date for the release - a hard date. Then, as is usual, they let that deadline whoosh right by. I think it's entirely valid for people to voice their disappointment and frustration with yet another delay. And there have been valid suggestions - I, for one, suggested that they not post release dates at all, given their history. Do you not think this is a valid criticism and comment? It is. And don't pretend you're not one of the people launching attacks at "ranters" and "complainers". The part you left out of my reply was from one of your own posts, bitching at people you think suck as writers just because they are looking for something about when (or if, at this point) WinV3 will ever be released. If Katherine insists that the one rule in this forum is to "be nice", then L&L is failing at making that happen, too.

[devinganger]

I think it's entirely valid for people to voice their disappointment and frustration with yet another delay.

Which is all fine and good...but some people have moved beyond that to personal attacks. There is a line between "I'm really frustrated" and "wow, you guys are jerks and deserve to go out of business."

There is also the problem that no matter *how* L&L have stated their dates in the past, there is a sizeable minority of people who see it as an iron-clad promise (rather than an estimated date, a progress update) and use it as an excuse to create a new account and start attacking L&L.

And there have been valid suggestions - I, for one, suggested that they not post release dates at all, given their history. Do you not think this is a valid criticism and comment? It is.

Not releasing dates at all has been their stated policy for several years now, but ironically in this circumstance, the only reason we got the date in that blog post at all is become of some toxic Windows beta testers who didn't want to accept that policy. Lee and Tiho were trying to communicate in good faith, and boy will they never make that mistake again.

Yes, L&L has made communication mistakes in the past, and I am sure they will do so again. They are only human. But at the end of the day, guys, this is just software. Nice software, but not life-or-death software. Software that has been deliberately engineered so that you can hit the eject button on it at any moment. There is no justification for the level of vitriol some people are prepared to throw at L&L for every little disappointment that comes their way. And until some of y'all recognize that L&L's mistakes don't justify the inevitable and depressingly predictable crap-storm that comes their way, and learn how to police the worst of your responses, there will continue to be those of us who stand up and defend L&L, because, damn, get some perspective already.

[Prometheus]

I think it's entirely valid for people to voice their disappointment and frustration with yet another delay.

Which is all fine and good...but some people have moved beyond that to personal attacks. There is a line between "I'm really frustrated" and "wow, you guys are jerks and deserve to go out of business."

We agree on this: there's no call for that sort of thing. Nobody is dying from L&L not meeting a deadline. It's annoying, and a bit frustrating, but not life ending.

There is also the problem that no matter *how* L&L have stated their dates in the past, there is a sizeable minority of people who see it as an iron-clad promise (rather than an estimated date, a progress update) and use it as an excuse to create a new account and start attacking L&L.

I've not really seen anyone attcking the foundation of the L&L castle except in the post about drawing and quartering the developers as some kind of responsibility penance. I've seen plenty of people voicing their disappointment. I don't think that's attacking L&L, though.

And there have been valid suggestions - I, for one, suggested that they not post release dates at all, given their history. Do you not think this is a valid criticism and comment? It is.

Not releasing dates at all has been their stated policy for several years now, but ironically in this circumstance, the only reason we got the date in that blog post at all is become of some toxic Windows beta testers who didn't want to accept that policy. Lee and Tiho were trying to communicate in good faith, and boy will they never make that mistake again.

They made other "this quarter" date sets, too, without specificity. That's part of the issue here. I've been around software development, and I know it can be a pain in the ass when there are people eagerly awaiting the widget. But I don't get repeatedly setting a date - even an -ish date - for the release of the widget if there's a history of not meeting dates in the first place - and I think we can agree that said history exists here. It simply winds people up and then sets them off when the date comes and goes without the widget being released. There's no reason for L&L to cave to a few people who think they're owed the world, because if those people start acting fools of themselves while everyone else is reasonable, it's clear who is being boneheaded.

Yes, L&L has made communication mistakes in the past, and I am sure they will do so again. They are only human. But at the end of the day, guys, this is just software. Nice software, but not life-or-death software. Software that has been deliberately engineered so that you can hit the eject button on it at any moment. There is no justification for the level of vitriol some people are prepared to throw at L&L for every little disappointment that comes their way. And until some of y'all recognize that L&L's mistakes don't justify the inevitable and depressingly predictable crap-storm that comes their way, and learn how to police the worst of your responses, there will continue to be those of us who stand up and defend L&L, because, damn, get some perspective already.

It isn't a matter of "defending" L&L. It's the part where some people just immediately dogpile on someone regardless of what they are saying and how they say it - accusing them of being failed writers or blaming the tool or just procrastinating or whatever - when all that person is doing is asking about a release that L&L themselves have said is in sight and then being disappointed. The people demanding body parts from the developers are obvious outliers, and L&L could step in at any time to deal with that. Most of what I've read in here is just people pointing out things like yet another missed date or the lack of parity between Mac and Windows (which was something L&L themselves said they were working toward), and so on.

Not everyone is saying the castle should be razed and the boats burned to the waterline, just as not every defender of L&L is immediately being bitchy to people voicing their opinions. But it makes for a difficult environment, and I've no doubt it turns people off Scrivener, which is not something I want, because I (selfishly) want them to continue making the widget.

[Sanguinius]

So, as of right now, we're in the same place as we were well before this thread was even started. People have voiced their concerns, their criticisms, and their frustrations over the missed deadline. Why, then, do they KEEP SAYING THE SAME THINGS? Over and over and over again comes this familiar refrain. Yes, we know what you're going to say, because you've already said it SEVEN TIMES. They missed the date. It's done. In the past. Behind us. You've complained about it (deservedly so, to be honest). And those complaints should get behind us, as well. Complaining yet again about the same thing when nothing has changed since the last time you complained is a waste of your time. Unless the complaining is the real reason you're here?