Literature and Latte

Gothelittle, thanks for some low-key and rational perspective, from a particular type of experience. I hope you brought your helmet and hip boots--such things are rarely tolerated in threads like this, no matter what the perspective.

Astaff wrote:Of course you’re free to go elsewhere, however you and the others are ignoring the fact that 1.9 does everything needed to output top class work. Yes it doesn’t have all the ‘frilly bits’ of Mac 3 yet, but that doesn’t stop it being better than any of the alternatives available.

As I said earlier ..... nose / face.

We won’t lord it over you when you return, just have a quiet inner chuckle over months lost away from the best program available just to prove a point....

(Assuming you’re responding to me...)

Um. I’m not trying to prove a point. X’D I literally can’t use Scriv right now the way I need too without being a nth degree away from losing documents. Lolol. Plus no one has volunteered how to change a V3 file into a 1.9 file, so there’s that too at the least. (Last time I checked the capability wasn’t there yet. Doesn’t mean it isn’t there now but shows where you guys are at.)

Be cocky all you want but you’re still wrong. X’D

I'm disappointed. I took it at face-value that it would be out since it seemed such an earnest statement. I don't think it was a lie, or intended to be such.

But now its "I do believe we are a matter of weeks away now - I'm certainly not talking months." which I also feel, is likely to be earnest.

I hope, though, that it isn't a statement of self-delusion, or appeasement. I hope it is a realistic statement. And I hope it isn't missed again.

I don't have any projects riding on deadlines or a necessity to have V3. I've just wanted it for awhile. I want it. It looks fancy, and nice, and cool.

ZeroDrawn wrote:I'm disappointed. I took it at face-value that it would be out since it seemed such an earnest statement. I don't think it was a lie, or intended to be such.

But now its "I do believe we are a matter of weeks away now - I'm certainly not talking months." which I also feel, is likely to be earnest.

I hope, though, that it isn't a statement of self-delusion, or appeasement. I hope it is a realistic statement. And I hope it isn't missed again.

I don't have any projects riding on deadlines or a necessity to have V3. I've just wanted it for awhile. I want it. It looks fancy, and nice, and cool.

Not being a native speaker of English I'm pondering.

What's the time frame here? Up to 3 weeks and 6 days? Not a month. Or having said month(s) 3 weeks and 6 days... I mean. After the initial anger, unjustified on my part, perhaps, and I'm not a programmer, perhaps it's not so much an issue of programmer and their skill but the programming language, or the compiler, or the platform their writing their code on. I hope once they reach the V3 plateu , they can have a breather and plan better strategies and tools for the future.

Gothelittle wrote:Hi, I use Scrivener for Windows only. For what it's worth, my view of it is this:

I'm fairly new to the boards and have been using the program for years without knowing a thing about the MacOS version, the 3 Beta, or the various types of drama going on in all the discussions.

To establish my perspective, I'm also a 'retired' Software Engineer who is now writing fiction and using Scrivener mostly for that purpose, though I also have it set up to help me collect family stories for my genealogy research.

As far as I'm concerned, whether Scrivener 3 comes out now or later, and whether Scrivener for Android comes out at all or not (I kind of hope it does someday), I have made a purchase of a program with a one-time payment, and I have found the product that I received to be worth the payment I made to acquire it.

I remember that whenever I read the 'it isn't out yet!?' posts and the blog updates about its progress. I really did get what I paid for. I read the feature list before I made the purchase, and even tried it out as a trial program. I knew what I wanted, and why I was willing to spend money on this that I haven't spent on Microsoft Office. (I use Libre Office, if anybody was curious.)

So while of course I am eager to see what Scrivener 3 looks like, I have the tool that I paid for and I can do with it what I intended to do with it. So I'm pretty much okay with everything.

And if I really had to have what Scrivener 3 is at this point, I could just download the beta. In fact, I did it, and tried it, and then decided to stay on 1.9 for now 'just in case', since 'production' projects really shouldn't be kept on betas. (Being a 'retired' software engineer and long-time computer user, I also back up my projects and such.)

I know how discussions like these often go. There are a few people who are frustrated on one side, and a few people on the other side who feel attacked, so I just kind of wanted to speak up as someone who is satisfied with what I got for what I paid, and will be looking forward to the opportunity for more - when it comes. I didn't really buy the tool for what it might be in the future. I bought it for what it does.

This - right here.

I'm also very happy with my purchase.

As a user for Scrivener for many years, I am thrilled for the new upgrade und some of the features i have tested in beta version. Never the less: at the end I want to upgrade to a product, which works reliable. I am entrusting all my writing projects to this only one programm - and with it a damn huge part of my lifetime. I love your current programm and i (literally) take it around with me day by day - working all over the world at my projects in the last years. It works fine. It works trustworthy. So please, don't panic at the end. For me as user - I prefer to wait as long as it takes you to release a product, that will not complicate or even accidentally kill my work. Take your time.

And of course yes, i am impatient, too - but in a good mood

dgmcalgary wrote:I'm also very happy with my purchase.

As am I. Bought my Windows licence solely on the basis of the current version, without even looking at v3. I'm very happy with v1.9 and would be content to use it for years to come - it's miles better than what I've been using for the last 20 years.

My feeling on the delay of v3 is this. Of course I want it. We all do. But only when it's ready, and not a moment before. I'm perfectly happy to use v1.9 until that day arrives.

So if I'm getting this right, it has been postponed again, by a matter of weeks. The current new beta runs through to the 15th of September.
We do not have a choice but to wait again. We will see. They certainly seem to think it's coming soon, and that apology felt real, If it needs more time in the oven, it needs more time. I appreciate that we aren't kept in the dark like we were once.

I find it interesting that mac users come here on windows forum and put down those who speak their minds about the countless delays of over two years since it was promised. They are clearly here to troll and give windows users a hard time for voicing their concerns and frustrations.

I wonder, should we windows users come to the mac forums and respond in a like manner when any mac user speaks their minds? Sure, But would we? No, We are the mature ones who don't try and troll others. Too bad it doesn't go both ways.

Perhaps there wouldn't be as many posts with windows users voicing their frustrations if there weren't as many if not more mac users giving them a hard time and just plain trolling them.

I have yet to see a single post by a windows user concerning the delays that was followed up by numerous put downs, attacks, and down right rude replies by mac users. Not a single one. That says a lot about mac users. Maybe they should keep it to themselves as not to show everyone their true natures and stay off the windows boards when they clearly have no reason to be on said board.
*drops the mic*

Nightmarian wrote:Anyway, every time I hear an update about the Windows version I just get more and more confused. There's 1 Mac dev who is somehow outpacing 2 devs? Are the Windows version and lack of parity so unimportant to the L&L that they are happy to continue refusing requests for any additional help? Why not up the price and hire another dev?

Yes, there is one MacOS and iOS developer, and yes, he outpaces the two Windows developers. The reason is the rather amazing Cocoa framework which you have at your fingertips when developing MacOS and iOS applications. It provides not only immensely useful GUI parts, but also internal wiring and event handling which is truly outstanding. Windows provides nothing that compares. At all. And no third party library is even close to the power and polish of Cocoa.

That's the magic sauce, and that is why the Windows application will always be lagging behind. The Windows team have selected a great framework to use, Qt, and that provides some of what Scrivener needs - but much needs to be coded from scratch. On MacOS and iOS it does not have to be coded from scratch. It's all there, in Cocoa.

Yes. Cocoa really is that much better than anything on Windows. It's really astounding. It all hails back to the NeXT platform which Jobs started developing in the 80's. We're talking 30 years of focused development by a great team at NeXT and then Apple. That's not easy to catch up to.

novelwriting wrote:I find it interesting that mac users come here on windows forum and put down those who speak their minds about the countless delays of over two years since it was promised. They are clearly here to troll and give windows users a hard time for voicing their concerns and frustrations.

I have yet to see a single post by a windows user concerning the delays that was followed up by numerous put downs, attacks, and down right rude replies by mac users. Not a single one. That says a lot about mac users. Maybe they should keep it to themselves as not to show everyone their true natures and stay off the windows boards when they clearly have no reason to be on said board.

*drops the mic*

Firstly, for a Mic Drop to have any impact you need to know what you're talking about, so major fail. I can see a number of posts by Win users immediately prior to your rant that have no comment from Mac users. Why? Because they have said they are happy with what they paid for (V1.9), yes, said they are disappointed with the V3 delay but haven't piled on the poor Win developer team and demanded 'consequences', made empty threats of going elsewhere etc etc.

As for your comment about Mac users, if you check many of those posting, myself included use Mac and Win, so we know both sides. Yes, we'd all like V3 out now, but understand the challenges of developing complex software.
Most of the comments aimed at those complaining was about the downright abrupt, even rude manner with demands for 'consequences', demands to throw more developers at the problem (usually a recipe for even more protracted development). No-one has issue with people being disappointed with the delay, but a little decency and respect goes a long way.

As has been pointed out MANY times, Win users purchased 1.9 and they have in it a fully functional program. If they purchased after late 2017, they will get a FREE upgrade to V3, something to be appreciative of, not get all snotty about. I purchased much earlier than that and will happily pay for the upgrade, without moaning or insulting the L&L staff.

So, I shall remain in the Win boards, and have no issues with Mac only users being here and contributing (which they do regularly).
For (a few) Win users to try and segregate the Win boards for only them smacks of everything you are accusing Mac users of. Try lurking in the Mac boards, strangely enough you might learn things in advance of the availability of Win V3. We won't try to claim the boards as only for Mac users

Astaff wrote:I’m disappointed that the Win version is late, however I am a realist and know the realities of software development. L&L as far as I recall only set one ‘promise’, the 30th and Lee it seems underestimated the number of remaining bugs or additional bugs were flagged.

I'm disappointed as well, and I am also a realist. But it's irritating to have them say "Yes, this date, finally!" only to see it slip away. I'd prefer they just not set a date a get peoples' expectations up if they cannot make deadlines (which, based on the history of this, they cannot).

Katherine is right about those demanding Lee’s ‘accountability’ be made public. As someone who has headed the outside of USA div of a $1Bn + company and consistently lead top performing teams in semiconductors and electronics, publicly announced ‘consequences’ are reserved for gross breach of policy, otherwise you take ownership (Lee and Keith have), learn from the issue and try to ensure it doesn’t happen again. that is how you build world’s best teams. The public consequences mentality is how you destroy teams.

She's right about that, and I do not agree with the things people are saying about accountability in that fashion. I am referring to her rude remarks to people that are in line with what the (usually) Mac users saying to people asking about the Winv3 release.

Someone commented he hasn’t been seen in the forum (to take his public humiliation). Quite frankly I wouldn’t be giving you the time of day, rather I’d be doing what I’m sure he is - head down slaving away to ensure you guys don’t have excuse to moan much longer.

"You guys" is a couple of people. The rest of us don't give a single shit if Lee shows up in the forums.

Defending him and L&L has nothing to do with being a ‘loyalist’ (you guys seem to think that somehow insults the realists amongst us) it’s simple reality and understanding that while less than desireable,

Sure, dude. I have yet to find a single loyalist that is anything but rude and insulting to anyone asking about v3 or just chiming in with their disappointment that yet another deadline has come and gone.

I have a 3 yr old granddaughter ( 1 of 11 grandkids) who does less tantrum throwing and dummy spitting than I’ve seen of late, and yes, that is intended as an insult!

Way to provide a terrific example of exactly what people are talking about when they dare say word one about their disappointment, frustration, or just ask a question about when v3 will be delivered, if ever.

Dr Dog wrote:

Prometheus wrote:Maybe L&L should get someone else to be the public face of the company in the forums. Katherine is just as unpleasant as the loyalists dogpiling anyone who dares offer up any criticism or frustration with the never ending promises of a Winv3 release. .

Whatever the issues of this thread, this personal attack on Katherine can't go without comment. I've been visiting these boards for many years, and although I don't always agree with everything Katherine says, the idea that any of it is 'unpleasant' is simply rubbish.

It isn't a personal attack. It is an observation on the way she replies to people as the public face of L&L in this forum. You're free to read it the way you want. But things like this:

Hmm.

If Scrivener 3 had released as scheduled on August 30 (yesterday), then you would have made the deadline. But it didn't, so you have to use another tool, and even if you start today you're going to miss the deadline.

Ok. If you say so.

Katherine

and this

I'm not sure how pointing out support resources for the new Compile feature counts as "ridicule."

I made the transition myself as a Mac beta tester, before the resources I've linked in this thread existed. It wasn't fun. But if you'd like to prove that you're smarter than I am by ignoring them, feel free.

Katherine

ARE rude. There's no call for it. At all.

Prometheus wrote: out support resources for the new Compile feature counts as "ridicule."

I made the transition myself as a Mac beta tester, before the resources I've linked in this thread existed. It wasn't fun. But if you'd like to prove that you're smarter than I am by ignoring them, feel free.

Katherine

ARE rude. There's no call for it. At all.[/quote]

I wouldn’t call Katherine’s comments rude, perhaps verbalising frustration at what are unreasonable attacks on L&L staff from one or two. Could she be a little more tactful? Perhaps, but if I’d been in her or Lee’s position with demands for ‘consequences’ suggestions of lying, called incompetent by some, I might have been tempted to say even more to one or two.

But then I’m beyond retiring age and if the boss fired me for saying that ‘even more’ I’d just shrug my shoulders and go have another attempt at retirement.

Prometheus wrote:

Dr Dog wrote:

Prometheus wrote:Maybe L&L should get someone else to be the public face of the company in the forums. Katherine is just as unpleasant as the loyalists dogpiling anyone who dares offer up any criticism or frustration with the never ending promises of a Winv3 release. .

Whatever the issues of this thread, this personal attack on Katherine can't go without comment. I've been visiting these boards for many years, and although I don't always agree with everything Katherine says, the idea that any of it is 'unpleasant' is simply rubbish.

It isn't a personal attack. It is an observation on the way she replies to people as the public face of L&L in this forum. You're free to read it the way you want. But things like this:

Hmm.

If Scrivener 3 had released as scheduled on August 30 (yesterday), then you would have made the deadline. But it didn't, so you have to use another tool, and even if you start today you're going to miss the deadline.

Ok. If you say so.

Katherine

and this

I'm not sure how pointing out support resources for the new Compile feature counts as "ridicule."

I made the transition myself as a Mac beta tester, before the resources I've linked in this thread existed. It wasn't fun. But if you'd like to prove that you're smarter than I am by ignoring them, feel free.

Katherine

ARE rude. There's no call for it. At all.

My take on this, having hung out in the Windows forums for several years, is that rude, insulting, and sometimes personal expressions of a frustration that is, in itself, quite understandable, finally pushed even the normally patient and rational Katherine over the edge. You might try looking at some of her over 5,000 posts in other threads before labeling her.