Commitment & responsibility...

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lunk
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:12 pm Post

Beobuck wrote:the ones who really will be paying the price are the customers, like me, whose writing deadlines will be missed because the Scrivener Windows V. 3 they had counted on for their projects is not available by the promised date.

What is it you need to do that you can’t do with version 1.9?
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running Mojave.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Astaff
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:05 pm Post

Beobuck wrote:Lee always says he takes responsibility, but the ones who really will be paying the price are the customers, like me, whose writing deadlines will be missed because the Scrivener Windows V. 3 they had counted on for their projects is not available by the promised date.


Sorry, but that is just a total cop-out and weak excuse for doing nothing. Everyone on Win 1.9 can still complete work and compile with what remains the best program for long form writing under Win. No one needs to miss deadlines or not earn income.

As for the total bs rubbish about bait and switch. That is just pathetic!

Those demanding to know what punishment Lee will suffer, take a good look at yourselves.

Suggesting he not get paid or other punishment. To put it bluntly, I am disgusted with such suggestions. Here’s a guy who is doing his damndest, no doubt feeling bad about having to say sorry but it’s pushed back a few more weeks, and all you guys can do is pile shit on him in a pack mentality.

Be
Beobuck
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:10 pm Post

If Scrivener for Windows 1.9 does everything I need it to do, why all the hype about Scrivener 3? I have nothing against Lee and certainly would not want him to be fired or lose pay. But don’t forget that he said several times that he expected to be held fully accountable if he didn’t make the deadline. And as for bullshit, you people saying now that it will be just a few more weeks before it’s ready, after saying that for months and delivering nothing–that’s real bullshit. Your time would be better spent keeping promises and producing a product rather than insulting your customers.

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kewms
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:34 am Post

Beobuck wrote:I can’t describe how disappointed I was to learn yesterday of yet another missed deadline, another broken promise. And as for the developer accepting responsibility for this, what does that mean? Does it mean he won’t get paid, a loss of income? For me it does mean a loss of income, because as a professional writer I’ve delayed several projects because I wanted to do them in Scrivener—and now I’ll miss my deadlines and might not get paid. I teach creative writing, and now I no longer will be recommending Scrivener to my students.


Hmm.

If Scrivener 3 had released as scheduled on August 30 (yesterday), then you would have made the deadline. But it didn't, so you have to use another tool, and even if you start today you're going to miss the deadline.

Ok. If you say so.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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kewms
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:23 am Post

I'm glad I don't work for you people...

No company that hopes to keep talented employees makes its internal "accountability" decisions public, except in cases of *gross* misconduct.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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Nightmarian
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:29 am Post

slin wrote:Just curious, but in his blog post, Lee posted:

I will personally commit, and be held responsible, for having Scrivener 3 for Windows ready for release on the 30th August 2019.


According to the latest update (viewtopic.php?f=57&t=40621),this deadline will be missed -- again. Honestly, this is both utterly embarrassing for L&L and insulting toward the userbase. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, eh still okay. But fool me half a dozen times? No, thanks.

I was about to recommend L&L products to a larger group of peeps who may not yet all know about these tools, and I thought I'd quickly check to make sure all updated versions will be available this weekend as promised again and again and again. But surpriiise, yet another deadline wooshed by. I'm sure Douglas Adams would be proud.

Needless to say, I won't be recommending L&L products for the foreseeable future. But do enlighten us: How exactly will be held responsible look like? :?:


The problem isn't in not recommending L&L, but rather recommending their Mac version as my Mac friend is constantly confused about the "drama" regarding the Windows version. Cheekily, I'd joke that maybe they have some kind of special partnership with Apple at this point.

Anyway, every time I hear an update about the Windows version I just get more and more confused. There's 1 Mac dev who is somehow outpacing 2 devs? Are the Windows version and lack of parity so unimportant to the L&L that they are happy to continue refusing requests for any additional help? Why not up the price and hire another dev?

I wouldn't mind it if the Windows version was even half a year behind the Mac, but it skipped an entire version just to attempt to catch up and still missed miserably. How long has V3 been out for Mac? Almost two years come November!

There's a lot of silliness going on in this thread both from those with unrealistic expectations and the blind loyalists, but meh. At this point, L&L has made it pretty clear that the Windows experience will always be the subpar experience, and not by an insignificant margin. They've proved it by actions prior and current and by their stark refusal to realize that whatever they're doing is not working and they are failing to keep the two versions of the same exact product anywhere remotely near parity.

When I wonder why and scratch my head only to see them give, as they themselves constantly admit, excuses, rather than possibilities for fixing what has been a long-standing issue, I don't know what to think.

It's surprising that even with two devs this isn't happening and I'd question the efforts of those devs at this point, regardless of whoever wants to take the PR responsibility. Seriously, get more help or get better help, or show us an attempt to fix the problems; increase the price so you can increase the workload or team size.

But we'll probably just be stuck like this. Scrivener 4 will release in a year or two and it'll be another 3 after that before Windows lumbers beind to the same version according to their pattern.

Pr
Prometheus
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:50 am Post

Maybe L&L should get someone else to be the public face of the company in the forums. Katherine is just as unpleasant as the loyalists dogpiling anyone who dares offer up any criticism or frustration with the never ending promises of a Winv3 release. Although I have to give her this: at least she doesn't talk bullshit about how the "complainers" obviously suck as writers and have too much time on their hands (which is interesting, coming from people who appear to spend loads of time on this forum). This is a company. They have continually set (and missed) deadlines - and this time, missed one that was a "set in stone" deadline. Their customers have a right to be upset that (again) they have failed to deliver. Yadda yadda, 1.x works fine, use the beta. I use both, thank you. But I, like others, am irritated that a) another release target has come and gone, and b) the loyalists in this forum, as well as Katherine, seem to think that we should all just let it slide, and say so, rudely, to other people simply here to state their opinions. If you're not going to make release dates, then stop setting them in public. You should underpromise and overdeliver. Thus far, on the Winv3 side, you've really done neither.

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lunk
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:14 am Post

Nightmarian wrote: the Windows experience will always be the subpar experience, and not by an insignificant margin.
- - -
When I wonder why and scratch my head only to see them give, as they themselves constantly admit, excuses, rather than possibilities for fixing what has been a long-standing issue, I don't know what to think.

I think the "why" is rather easy to understand. The Mac OS world is a closed ecosystem where one manufacturer (Apple) provides both a limited number of alternative hardwares (Mac:s) and essentially only one software (Mac OS) and has made a point of providing a lot of tools for third-party app developers to help and speed up app development. The Windows world is an extremely open ecosystem, with several OS versions and an unlimited number of possible combinations of hardwares and softwares, and with very few ready-made tools for app development.

If L&L has made any major error, it is in stating that they will deliver Mac OS and Windows versions that look the same, work the same way and have feature parity. Not even Microsoft has managed this with their Office suite. The Mac and Windows versions are not identical. They are very similar, but not at all identical. Striving to create a product that is virtually identical for two different OS ecosystems is essentially a hopeless project with an ever-moving target. When Apple releases a new version of Mac OS, new capabilities are added, and those are slowly integrated into Mac Scrivener. When Microsoft releases a new version of Windows, it’s highly unlikely that any new capabilities will make it easier to make a Win Scrivener that is identical to the Mac version.

The only feature that really has to be identical in the two Scrivener versions is the project format, so that projects can easily be moved between Macs and PCs. The simplest (?) way to achieve this would probably have been to release an interim version of Win Scrivener 3 where almost nothing but the project format had changed.

So, what can be learned from all this?
1) Never ever publish even hints of release dates.
2) Never ever claim that you will deliver Mac and Windows versions that will have feature parity and which will be more or less identical.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running Mojave.
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 11 Pro, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

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Astaff
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:33 am Post

Prometheus wrote: I, like others, am irritated that a) another release target has come and gone, and b) the loyalists in this forum, as well as Katherine, seem to think that we should all just let it slide, and say so, rudely, to other people simply here to state their opinions. If you're not going to make release dates, then stop setting them in public. You should underpromise and overdeliver. Thus far, on the Winv3 side, you've really done neither.


I’m disappointed that the Win version is late, however I am a realist and know the realities of software development. L&L as far as I recall only set one ‘promise’, the 30th and Lee it seems underestimated the number of remaining bugs or additional bugs were flagged.

Katherine is right about those demanding Lee’s ‘accountability’ be made public. As someone who has headed the outside of USA div of a $1Bn + company and consistently lead top performing teams in semiconductors and electronics, publicly announced ‘consequences’ are reserved for gross breach of policy, otherwise you take ownership (Lee and Keith have), learn from the issue and try to ensure it doesn’t happen again. that is how you build world’s best teams. The public consequences mentality is how you destroy teams.

I wouldn’t have an issue if some said, disappointed in the miss... but the endless harping about broken promises, demanding ‘consequences’ shows a vengeance mentality. Lee hasn’t poked anyone in the eye or stolen $50 that might warrant Life without Parole in a certain vengeance mentality jurisdiction, he underestimated the work needed to finish clearing remaining bugs.

Someone commented he hasn’t been seen in the forum (to take his public humiliation). Quite frankly I wouldn’t be giving you the time of day, rather I’d be doing what I’m sure he is - head down slaving away to ensure you guys don’t have excuse to moan much longer.

Defending him and L&L has nothing to do with being a ‘loyalist’ (you guys seem to think that somehow insults the realists amongst us) it’s simple reality and understanding that while less than desireable, V1.9 does a great job and V3 will be that much better.

I have a 3 yr old granddaughter ( 1 of 11 grandkids) who does less tantrum throwing and dummy spitting than I’ve seen of late, and yes, that is intended as an insult!

Keith/Katherine, if I crossed the line with that final comment, feel free to delete my forum account. It won’t impact my ‘loyalty’ (that dirty word again) to Scrivener and the great work you do. I am a member of several Scrivener groups who’s members have taken an adult approach to the delay so won’t be short of support options.

ts
tswalker
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:29 pm Post

Yeah!
What lunk said...

:wink:
TSWalker

je
jesuslpgc
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:06 pm Post

But sadly there is no short-term fix.


Thank you very much for your sincerity.

I was for several years the happy user of Scrivener 2.x in Mac.
Now I'm back to Windows and I and I thought it would be nice to use your program again. But sorry, I'm not paying a similar amount to what a Mac license costs (I know it's somewhat cheaper but not that cheaper) to have an outdated program that forces me to tinker with my laptops' screens settings so it doesn't look blurry, that it's lacking many features the mac version have, and that once release will be at least 3 years behind the mac version, with the vague promise that it might eventually be upgraded, or not. And God forbid that I voice my concerns in this forum, because a Greek chorus of doom will shout me into oblivion by stating that version 1.9.x still does anything that I might to do, that poor developers should not be held accountable to their promises, and by golly, paying good money for a decade old program and a promise should be more than enough. :roll:

I 'll show myself out, and will have a look every now and then to check if things have improved. I'd like to be a customer once again, but things look rather grim from sunny Spain.

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ForgottenGold
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:17 pm Post

There’s an issue with promises being kept, now granted L&L reaches for the stars often, which I definitely give them credit for, but maybe promises shouldn’t be made until they can actually be kept. A point was made that Win skipped a version to catch up to Mac and is still years behind Mac, which definitely doesn’t help.

Once the two programs are in better sync, as was said, even half a year off, then there will be a lot less questions and complaints. Until then this situation is going to remain, despite the best efforts of L&L. I definitely credit them for trying to make these programs as good as they do. But there is a limit, and they know where it is.

Personally, I’m moving away from Scriv for awhile and the loyalists can come and yell at me for it and make fun, but, well, in showing how I’d much rather dish out more $$ for Scrivener to up its game, I bought an iPad, and am using Word (which also has the draw feature), SelvyScript keyboard for handwriting, and OmniOutliner3 for outlines. Honestly, it’s the happiest I’ve been in months with my writing environment. And to the loyalists: I will still be here to see if Scriv ups its game and if my writing environment needs to change again, I’ll be using Scriv again, so don’t come lord over me if you see me here, because it doesn’t mean you won or some ridiculousness like that. Lol.

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Astaff
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:36 am Post

Of course you’re free to go elsewhere, however you and the others are ignoring the fact that 1.9 does everything needed to output top class work. Yes it doesn’t have all the ‘frilly bits’ of Mac 3 yet, but that doesn’t stop it being better than any of the alternatives available.

As I said earlier ..... nose / face.

We won’t lord it over you when you return, just have a quiet inner chuckle over months lost away from the best program available just to prove a point....

Jo
Jordi Mora

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:45 am Post

Prometheus wrote:Maybe L&L should get someone else to be the public face of the company in the forums. Katherine is just as unpleasant as the loyalists dogpiling anyone who dares offer up any criticism or frustration with the never ending promises of a Winv3 release. .


Whatever the issues of this thread, this personal attack on Katherine can't go without comment. I've been visiting these boards for many years, and although I don't always agree with everything Katherine says, the idea that any of it is 'unpleasant' is simply rubbish.

Go
Gothelittle
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:06 am Post

Hi, I use Scrivener for Windows only. For what it's worth, my view of it is this:

I'm fairly new to the boards and have been using the program for years without knowing a thing about the MacOS version, the 3 Beta, or the various types of drama going on in all the discussions.

To establish my perspective, I'm also a 'retired' Software Engineer who is now writing fiction and using Scrivener mostly for that purpose, though I also have it set up to help me collect family stories for my genealogy research.

As far as I'm concerned, whether Scrivener 3 comes out now or later, and whether Scrivener for Android comes out at all or not (I kind of hope it does someday), I have made a purchase of a program with a one-time payment, and I have found the product that I received to be worth the payment I made to acquire it.

I remember that whenever I read the 'it isn't out yet!?' posts and the blog updates about its progress. I really did get what I paid for. I read the feature list before I made the purchase, and even tried it out as a trial program. I knew what I wanted, and why I was willing to spend money on this that I haven't spent on Microsoft Office. (I use Libre Office, if anybody was curious.)

So while of course I am eager to see what Scrivener 3 looks like, I have the tool that I paid for and I can do with it what I intended to do with it. So I'm pretty much okay with everything.

And if I really had to have what Scrivener 3 is at this point, I could just download the beta. In fact, I did it, and tried it, and then decided to stay on 1.9 for now 'just in case', since 'production' projects really shouldn't be kept on betas. (Being a 'retired' software engineer and long-time computer user, I also back up my projects and such.)

I know how discussions like these often go. There are a few people who are frustrated on one side, and a few people on the other side who feel attacked, so I just kind of wanted to speak up as someone who is satisfied with what I got for what I paid, and will be looking forward to the opportunity for more - when it comes. I didn't really buy the tool for what it might be in the future. I bought it for what it does.