any news on Windows 3 version?

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devinganger
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Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:22 pm Post

ForgottenGold wrote:Also, please mind your own business about how I spend my time. It is mine to spend and that has nothing to do with this. Besides, at this point I’m happy to let them know I’m ticked. So stop telling me to shut up and fall in line, please.


Nobody is telling you to shut up or not be happy. But wailing about it over and over like a middle school drama class in the forums is doing nothing but wasting *everyone else's* time. You waste our time, you're voided the right to complain about our comments about how you spend your time.

If you're really that pissed off, email them. At least then it will go directly to the right people -- and you may even get a response -- rather than this public circus Trumpery.
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ForgottenGold
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Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:28 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
ForgottenGold wrote:
devinganger wrote:
Huh. I've used Scrivener on both my Surface Pro 1 and Surface Pro 3. What super-secret Surface x64 (they're all 64-bit devices, except for the Surface RT and Surface 2 RT, so they are x64 and not x86) do you have that doesn't work with Scrivener?

Now, if you're trying to use it via the tablet interface...you're out of luck, because it's not optimized for it, and it probably won't be until such time as they start working on the Android UI and can back port some of the relevant changes to the Windows UI. But even then, it's meant to be on par with Mac Scrivener, and Apple in their infinite wisdom doesn't put touch screens on Macs, so Mac Scrivener doesn't have to optimize for a touch interface.

But here's the thing -- NOBODY promised you Scrivener for Windows ever would.


Right. For touch.

Also I don’t care what they promised. I care what they don’t do. That’s what keeps them behind and what will ultimately push them out of the game. Like...oh look. Now. Because I can’t use it on my Surface.


Well, that's odd. There are 3 or 4 of us at my regular writer's group who all use Surfaces of various generations, and we're all using Scrivener.


Not really. It sounds like you're using it as a computer. Not a tablet. I use it as a tablet. For what I do I can't be flipping back and forth between using the keyboard and using my pen/touch. As you said no one promised it to be optimized to touch....as obvious as a development as that should have been...... :|

If they optimize it for pen/touch and make it not run so slow, I will forget my other gripes, but for now it remains unusable for me.

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ForgottenGold
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Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:33 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
ForgottenGold wrote:Also, please mind your own business about how I spend my time. It is mine to spend and that has nothing to do with this. Besides, at this point I’m happy to let them know I’m ticked. So stop telling me to shut up and fall in line, please.


Nobody is telling you to shut up or not be happy. But wailing about it over and over like a middle school drama class in the forums is doing nothing but wasting *everyone else's* time. You waste our time, you're voided the right to complain about our comments about how you spend your time.

If you're really that pissed off, email them. At least then it will go directly to the right people -- and you may even get a response -- rather than this public circus Trumpery.


I'm just sick and tired of people more or less demanding I agree. If you'd all let me have my opinion then we wouldn't still be talking. You're wasting your time, not me. How you spend your time is your choice. You can respond to me, or ignore me. I will have my opinion regardless.

So please, how about we stop this now. I' will have my opinion and you can have yours. If you respond, I will respond, but I propose we stop this now.

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devinganger
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Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:39 pm Post

ForgottenGold wrote:As you said no one promised it to be optimized to touch....as obvious as a development as that should have been...... :|


Why is that so obvious, though? Mac laptops and desktop systems don't have touch screens, so Scrivener for MacOS doesn't have touch support. Scrivener for Windows has been working diligently to catch up on a multi-year headstart to bring it in to feature parity with the MacOS version. Like it or not, they're not designed for touch as one of the basic requirements.

Why should the developers set an artificial priority on making critical UI changes that will only result in keeping the Mac and Windows versions even further forked for something that, again, only a very small vocal minority have asked for, rather than stay on target and get the Windows version to where the Mac version is (all while taking abuse from every punter along the way)?

Hell, even the people who use Scrivener for iOS on their iPhones and iPads spend a lot of time talking about the physical keyboards they use. It's not uncommon for people who are using a writing program to, y'know, use a keyboard and mouse.
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ForgottenGold
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Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:54 pm Post

devinganger wrote:
ForgottenGold wrote:As you said no one promised it to be optimized to touch....as obvious as a development as that should have been...... :|


Why is that so obvious, though? Mac laptops and desktop systems don't have touch screens, so Scrivener for MacOS doesn't have touch support. Scrivener for Windows has been working diligently to catch up on a multi-year headstart to bring it in to feature parity with the MacOS version. Like it or not, they're not designed for touch as one of the basic requirements.

Why should the developers set an artificial priority on making critical UI changes that will only result in keeping the Mac and Windows versions even further forked for something that, again, only a very small vocal minority have asked for, rather than stay on target and get the Windows version to where the Mac version is (all while taking abuse from every punter along the way)?

Hell, even the people who use Scrivener for iOS on their iPhones and iPads spend a lot of time talking about the physical keyboards they use. It's not uncommon for people who are using a writing program to, y'know, use a keyboard and mouse.


Okay, I’m taking this as you want to continue the discussion. Just remember that you guys are the one who started talking to me. Lol. Not the other way around.

I use the outliner in Scrivener more than anything else and have more than once now forgotten out of the mere fact that all apps support touch that Scrivener doesn’t support touch and nearly lost or deleted crucial items in my outline. I use touch over the mousepad even when I am using my keyboard because it’s (usually) easier.

And it is obvious because masses amounts of Windows desktops are now tablets.

Also, I do copy and paste writing into Scrivener often, because I often write in a handwriting app. I’ve since stopped doing that and switched to Word because I keep accidentally selecting text when I mean to scroll and then end up moving the text to god knows where.

It’s exhausting. It’s much easier to use Word at this rate, which frustrates me because I do love Scrivener. I’ve been using it for 7 years. :cry:

So all that frustration you see here? Have some pity. I’m broken up about it. That’s why I’m so frustrated. I am trying to give Scrivener one last shot with the release buuut of course they don’t even have it out yet, again, which is just salt in the wound. I for some reason have been thinking that official release will fix this, but, well, what am I really thinking....

From my standpoint, they seem very much like they’re not on top of things.

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Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:21 am Post

I'll make one final post.

Since I've been on this forum, dozens of people have forecast L&L's doom and threatened to go elsewhere because they didn't have a particular feature, didn't have a version out quick enough, the list is long. They've all been wrong and their whining hasn't changed a thing, and in most cases, they seem to still be around, using Scrivener.

The 'smart' thing (IMHO) would be to support the development and release of V3 by being an active Beta tester if time etc permits. The original spec never mentioned touch support, so it's not on this version and the team is under the gun getting the current promised spec to market without turning around and almost starting from scratch to include touch.

Pure speculation here, once V3 Win is out and a couple of other priorities are sorted, PERHAPS they might look at touch then.

The place to request touch support is Wish List - as a request, not demand that 'if you don't do it I'll hold me breath until I turn blue'.

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ForgottenGold
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:36 am Post

Astaff wrote:I'll make one final post.

Since I've been on this forum, dozens of people have forecast L&L's doom and threatened to go elsewhere because they didn't have a particular feature, didn't have a version out quick enough, the list is long. They've all been wrong and their whining hasn't changed a thing, and in most cases, they seem to still be around, using Scrivener.

The 'smart' thing (IMHO) would be to support the development and release of V3 by being an active Beta tester if time etc permits. The original spec never mentioned touch support, so it's not on this version and the team is under the gun getting the current promised spec to market without turning around and almost starting from scratch to include touch.

Pure speculation here, once V3 Win is out and a couple of other priorities are sorted, PERHAPS they might look at touch then.

The place to request touch support is Wish List - as a request, not demand that 'if you don't do it I'll hold me breath until I turn blue'.


I wasn’t threatening anything. I also wasn’t forecasting their doom. I too have seen many posts of that nature. I was criticizing only and saying that I am trying my best to move on because it’s not working for me currently. I don’t believe in boycotts.

Since it evidently is not going to happen in Beta I may send an email. But I won’t be posting in the Wishlist. At the very least because in the past I’ve certainly seen responses from the forum members that are basically poopooing what people have said. Scrivener is supposed to be versatile. Everyone else’s needs are different from everyone else’s. It would be nice if some of the regulars (member and developers) would remember that.

(I still reserve the right to be annoyed publicly. :P The original post *was* about what happened to release date and it *was* delayed yet again... lol.)

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devinganger
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:21 am Post

ForgottenGold wrote:But I won’t be posting in the Wishlist. At the very least because in the past I’ve certainly seen responses from the forum members that are basically poopooing what people have said.

I've gone ahead and posted a new Wish List thread about better touch support once the initial 3.x release rush dies down. If regulars want to poopoo me they're free to do so. :)

ForgottenGold wrote:Scrivener is supposed to be versatile. Everyone else’s needs are different from everyone else’s. It would be nice if some of the regulars (member and developers) would remember that.


Many of us do remember that, but we also remember having past versions of particular conversations. We also remember that there are times where KB says that he won't add a particular feature because he doesn't want to, and at the end of the day, if he doesn't want to work on Scrivener nobody wins.

ForgottenGold wrote:(I still reserve the right to be annoyed publicly. :P The original post *was* about what happened to release date and it *was* delayed yet again... lol.)


It is possible to be angry and frustrated and still not attack people. Just as you begged for a measure of pity in our responses to your frustration (which is a fair request, and hopefully has been coming through), you need to extend that same pity to the developers. The act of setting up a business, writing software, and selling it does not suddenly turn one into a drone whose sole purpose is to make everyone happy. A lot of us consider the L&L team not just "people we buy software from" but also friends. Nobody likes to see their friends get *personally* treated in a shabby way.

I think a lot of what you are seeing as a "loyalist" response is really more of a, "that was a really personal and crappy way to make your point. You can do better."
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ForgottenGold
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:50 am Post

devinganger wrote:A lot of us consider the L&L team not just "people we buy software from" but also friends. Nobody likes to see their friends get *personally* treated in a shabby way.


Ah. So *that's* the issue here.

You have a conflict of interest.

Anyone selling anything can expect upset customers. It's the nature of the business. Any business. I have dealt with such customers and right now, sure, I am that customer. And frankly, they can still hear flack sometimes without getting their panties in a bunch and getting personally offended. The fact is they aren't perfect, or my friends, no matter what you think of them. They can hear someone get mad. If they don't like it then they shouldn't be in customer facing service of any kind. Forums especially.

And this is coming from someone who's done a lot of customer facing service.... You're evidently a writer and not a customer service rep, and if you are, you're not doing a great job right now, dude. And the fact is, there is no amount of "doing better" that makes any difference around here. I get the same responses no matter how nice I am. "Well Scrivener is perfect." Sometimes when you yell that's the only way people hear you.

If you're looking for me to apologize, I'm not going to. I complained, which I have a right to as a customer. You guys keep coming after me, and you're just feeding the flame.

Let me be clear here, this is the first time I've actually been not nice here....

Sometimes people need a harsh critique.

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novelwriting
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:02 am Post

Always easy for the Mac users to sit there and say Win users are being irrational or impatient. They have never had to wait for anything. Always have been catered to and already have had several updates. So, while they have nothing to complain about, they have the nerve to put down those who have been waiting for over 2 years now for a version that even somewhat comes close to what was promised.

Even when done, win version won't have all the capabilities of the mac version because they indicated it would take more work. I bet if it was a change or update for the mac version they would find the time to get it done. They always have all while the windows version is still years behind.

Heck the windows version was years behind from the start and we were promised they would catch us up and put out windows version 3.0 along with mac version 3.0. It is no longer the case as now 2 yrs later already the mac version is updated with more features that aren't planned for win 3.0 and at this rate... well it seems mac 4.0 will be in development before win 3.0 even is available. How many updates has mac already received?

Yeah, mac users need to hush up as they have always been the spoiled children of the family of users. If they ever had to wait for anything perhaps they would get it. Instead they whine for anything and they are immediately catered to. Meanwhile the rest of the family of users are watching and waiting for something, anything.

I personally have already found a few programs that have most of the features Scrivener has and even a few features that are valuable that Scrivener doesn't have. Rather then switching over and moving all my files to the new programs, I was holding out here waiting with money in hand to buy this new 3.0, but with yet another delay I may just support other programs instead.

OH and as far as seeing the company as "friends", sure since they are catering to you mac users. Of course. They do anything you ask. Friends? You must have a loose interpretation of a friend. Most of us consider a friend as someone we actually know, someone we interact on a regular basis, someone who doesn't keep making empty promises time after time. I at least hope you don't really have friends like that. But perhaps since the ones who consider them friends, are mac users who of course never had been on the other side, Let's revert your mac 3.0 to 1.0 and not allow you back into 3.0 until win 3.0 comes out.. let's see how you would enjoy having to wait over 2 years to have the features you know are there but can't use. Hmmm.. I bet with certainty that you would be up in arms about that huh. But nah as long as your catered to you are happy as little larks.

So, yeah I suppose I am more upset with the mac users putting down win users and saying the entitled comments they do. I'm not really surprised they are missing the deadline yet again. Why would we think they wouldn't? They have missed so many before, heck 2 years of missed deadlines. Each beta shows minimal changes and is far from ready for release. Perhaps we should set our sights on getting 3.0 by the end of 2020? Or maybe after they finish mac 4.0... yeah that seems more reasonable.
Last edited by novelwriting on Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ForgottenGold
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:15 am Post

Amen, bro.

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Astaff
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:29 am Post

I use all 3 platforms so I’m not a ‘Mac user sitting there....’. I do feel the frustration of delay on V3, but I also understand the reality of developing complex software and have done so myself.

That’s why I wait patiently and try the beta, and yes trust my ‘friends’ at L&L to deliver V3 Win when it is ready for prime time. I haven’t been around near as long as Devinganger, but like him do feel the L&L team are a decent, responsive bunch who do good software.

While I don’t have a Surface I am considering one or an XPS 13 touch to enable me to try a couple of projects on that format.

I will take the time to request touch support.

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Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:17 am Post

ForgottenGold wrote:You have a conflict of interest.


No, I don't. I just have this crazy little belief -- that I do not always live up to, but I am always trying to be honest about when I fail -- that people shouldn't treat each other like crap.

There are exceptions to that rule, but it's a good first start.

ForgottenGold wrote:You're evidently a writer and not a customer service rep, and if you are, you're not doing a great job right now, dude.


I've done customer service. I've been an IT consultant. I'm an IT architect now. I'm really good at customer service, actually, but here's the thing -- you're not my customer. You're some other peer that I've barely seen around this community barging in and all I've seen from you in this thread until the past few exchanges are that you're trying to get all tough on L&L to...what, exactly, is your end game? What can they change *right now* that would make you happier and get you to back off from such an aggressive mode of behavior?

If the answer is nothing, then you're just being mean. But you're striking out at people who have only committed the sin of not meeting your expectation. You only see your interaction. Just like you complain about how it doesn't matter how you give feedback, someone jumps on you -- dude, L&L has the same problem but in much greater degree. It LITERALLY does not matter how they communicate, what they communicate, there's always some mouth-breathing chucklehead who successfully compile Hello World in VB6 and thinks that means they know everything about Windows development here to tell them exactly what they're doing wrong and how to fix it.

And those people are always wrong.

So now we're at the position where we don't get ETAs, progress updates, or roadmaps except in very great circumstances -- which is not ideal. So if you want to be mad at anyone, don't vent your spleen on L&L. Vent it on your fellow customers.
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ForgottenGold
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:04 pm Post

Astaff wrote:I use all 3 platforms so I’m not a ‘Mac user sitting there....’. I do feel the frustration of delay on V3, but I also understand the reality of developing complex software and have done so myself.

That’s why I wait patiently and try the beta, and yes trust my ‘friends’ at L&L to deliver V3 Win when it is ready for prime time. I haven’t been around near as long as Devinganger, but like him do feel the L&L team are a decent, responsive bunch who do good software.

While I don’t have a Surface I am considering one or an XPS 13 touch to enable me to try a couple of projects on that format.

I will take the time to request touch support.


Can I just point out you do have the Mac version at least? That’s some consolation. For some of us, Windows is our only platform.

I have a bigger problem in that I had a Mac and had V3, and now am bumped down to using only the beta version to open my V3 files. Huge, huge problem. I’ve been using it, as minimally as possible so I don’t loose work, since before it was even that stable. It’s a nightmare.

Thanks for going out and suggesting touch support. I did as well in an email.

As for Devingranger, I’m no longer responding to you. I’m not in the mood for getting my behavior policed by you, which is really all you’re interested in doing. I have the right to be annoyed at L&L for failing the consumer yet again. I have no responsibility to you, and anything I’ve said to you in a tone you don’t like is coming down to your level. If you want to have a nice toned conversation, stop dragging it back down. I’ve several times attempted a better tone but you insist on this one. I’m no longer engaging that tone. Byee.

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Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:45 am Post

Hi,
I've been trialing the Ver. 3 beta with one writing project that I converted from Ver.1. When I start Ver. 3 beta, the message appears "This Scrivener for Windows Beta will expire after Sunday 15 Sep 2019".
What will happen after 15 Sep, which is not that far away?
I remember there was a conversion involved, in migrating to the beta, and so I wonder if I will be able to go back to Ver. 1 after 15 Sep for that project?
I am enjoying using the Ver.3 beta, and I'd like to keep doing so, until the actual Ver.3 is available, so if you can either tell me that the warning is just that, and the software will keep operating after that date, or that L&L will post a further beta prior to that date with a later cut-off date, then I'll be very happy!
(And if the software does stop on 15 Sep, please don't wait for the last day to deal with this issue - please respond as soon as you can...)