Scrivener Needs Urgent Updates

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squeakyhiro
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Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:39 am Post

Just returning to the thread I started. That this thread is still continuing, seems to be testament to the frustration and disappointment many Windows users are experiencing.

As I said at the outset, I want to love Scrivener. I really do. But, the known, yet unaddressed, bugs make Scrivener an unreliable beast to love.

And I'm not talking about features it doesn't have. All I really want is for Scrivener to be fit for purpose. To do what it says it will do without loss of data or annoying bugs (particularly, the screen display errors in full manuscript mode).

It is not a big ask. It is a basic expectation.

And no amount of "the developers are trying really hard" or "you've got to understand, it was built on an old platform" will change that.

Squeaky Hiro

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JimRac
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Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:06 pm Post

squeakyhiro wrote:That this thread is still continuing, seems to be testament to the frustration and disappointment many Windows users are experiencing.


Although I've posted in this thread about my issue with how bullets work in the Windows version, I am not a frustrated and disappointed Windows user. Quite the contrary. For the last 2 years, Scrivener has been a key tool in increasing my productivity.

Thank you L&L Team.

Jim
I’m just a customer.

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garpu
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Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:59 pm Post

So Devinganger and I have had some heated disagreements WRT Linux. I'm agreeing with him in this post, and that should tell you quite a bit.

devinganger wrote:Be careful with most statements like "I think most people using Scrivener would agree..." because I can guarantee you will be surprised.


Exactly this. You don't see or hear from all the satisfied Scrivener users (myself included) because there's nothing really to say. Instead we clog up things in the coffee end of the forums. (Or, in my case, go months without going to the forums.)
Slackware-current 64-bit, XFCE

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Jaaaarne
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Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:25 pm Post

garpu wrote:Exactly this. You don't see or hear from all the satisfied Scrivener users (myself included) because there's nothing really to say. Instead we clog up things in the coffee end of the forums. (Or, in my case, go months without going to the forums.)


The satisfied Scrivener users are probably too busy using Scrivener for its intended purpose, and thus have no time to spare for forums. Unless they are busy procrastinating. ;)

Seriously, though. It's not all as bad as people sometimes make it seem. And the new interface? I take my recent words back, I don't want it. :) I've looked at the screenshots in Apple Store and was disappointed. It seemed much nicer when I saw it here on forums. I'd keep the current one if pressed to choose between two.

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Sanguinius
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Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:22 pm Post

Jaaaarne wrote:The satisfied Scrivener users are probably too busy using Scrivener for its intended purpose, and thus have no time to spare for forums. Unless they are busy procrastinating. ;)

This is actually proven to happen. It's the same with negative reviews on shopping sites like Amazon. People are statistically more likely to complain if they don't like something than they are to say something nice about things they like. This creates a disparity that makes it appear as though there are more complaints per capita than there truly are.

el
eltos
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Platform: Mac + Windows

Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:21 am Post

Totally satisfied with Win Scrivener. Sorry to those that are having problems, but don't think you speak for all of us.

Mi
Mick
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Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:26 am Post

eltos wrote:Totally satisfied with Win Scrivener. Sorry to those that are having problems, but don't think you speak for all of us.

Same here. It's by far my favourite piece of commercial software.

ro
rouzejp
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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:19 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:27 am Post

Hello,
First, thank you to excuse the French no English I am for this translation almost automatic;). Scrivener is an excellent program and I do not know better. I use Windows and naturally it's always a bit frustrated functionality on Mac which is not available. For me it is essentially the ability to integrate the Antidote checker. I was pleased to see today a minor update and I look forward to the consolidated version 3 with that for OSX. It may lack an article giving us enough precise information about new features, an estimated release date ... but anyway I prefer to wait a good version of a sloppy release full of bugs;)
I take this opportunity to thank the creators for a good software, costing as little expensive.
Thank you.

Bonjour,
D'abord merci d'excuser le français nul en anglais que je suis pour cette traduction automatique ou presque ;). Scrivener est un excellent logiciel et je ne connais pas mieux. Je l'utilise sous Windows et naturellement on est toujours un peu frustré de voir des fonctionnalités sur Mac dont on ne dispose pas. Pour moi il s'agit essentiellement de la possibilité d'intégrer le correcteur Antidote. J'ai été heureux de voir aujourd'hui une mise à jour mineure et j'attends avec impatience la version 3 unifiée avec celle pour OSX. Il manque peut-être un article nous donnant des infos assez précises sur les nouvelles fonctionnalités, une date estimée de sortie... Mais de toute façon je préfère attendre une bonne version qu'une version baclée pleine de bugs ;)
Je profite de l'occasion pour remercier les créateurs pour un si bon logiciel, coûtant aussi peu cher.
Merci.

ph
photonex68
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Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:14 pm Post

I'm new to the forum, but I wanted to add to the list of people who've expressed no major quibbles with Scrivener. My only issue with the new release has been that the Project Replacements and Preset Replacements don't work when compiling. It's a feature I use regularly, so I rolled back to the previous version.

Tr
Tricia
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Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:14 am Post

I did post due to frustrations with the update in the Scrivener technical suppprt forums but that's because it's such a great program and I want to keep using it! I appreciate that prices are kept v low for such an amazing product and that Keith and his team are working so hard to help us all out. Thank you.

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markfasano
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Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:45 am Post

It's my perception that when a program's functionality is not at parity across platforms, (often significant) resentment exists among the "less favored" user base.

Here's how I imagine the dynamic plays out: Eventually these folks come up against a constraint while using the program -- something they want it to do that it can't, or something they wish it did "better." So they trot online to the support forum and discover that, holy smokes, the Mac version or the Windows version can do that thing, or X version does do it better.

And then they think. They think about how they paid the same, or almost the same amount of money for their redheaded-stepchild version that the developer -- whether it's a small shop or Acme software giant -- obviously doesn't give a shit about, and they stew in that. And then they feel cheated. And they stew in that. By now they're shivering with rage. And then they climb back online to let "management" have it with both barrels. (Unfortunately for them, management's not reading their jeremiads).

So, regarding the real or perceived shortcomings of Scrivener Windows: On these fora, plenty of friendly, well-meaning folk reply to such complaints with, "Well, if Scrivener doesn't work for you then try something else." Perfectly reasonable response. The problem is that, compared with Scrivener, there is nothing else. No other program even remotely comes close to doing what Scrivener does. So telling them, "Sorry you're dissatisfied, good luck with the alternatives" is just jamming their (imagined?) impotence back in their faces.

The best parallel with this spate of Scrivener Windows negativism I can think of off the top is Quicken (which is actually an imperfect parallel, since Quicken Windows -- the favored platform -- is and has been a stinking pile of deuce for years, whereas Scrivener Windows -- while suffering from a rather yucky font display and lacking such goodies as Snapshot comparison -- is a highly functional program). Intuit has treated Quicken Mac users like a wet food stamp for years. (And it should be said to those who decry the breach of civility on this forum that the entire Quicken forum is like Lord of the Flies compared with this space). Quicken Mac users look at their Windows counterparts, who paid (roughly) the same amount for their software and think, "Sure, they've got a bloated, buggy, dysfunctional pile of dung to contend with. But look at all the features they have but we don't."

Here's where I think the Scrivener/Quicken parallel is apt: like Scrivener, Quicken is indispensable. In the sphere of personal finance software, there simply is no alternative. So when (not if) Quicken breaks down on you, and erases 10 years of your mortgage transactions, or titanically screws your tax calculations, you can like it or you can lump it. Such indispensability tends to breed at least a little bit of anger.

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Sanguinius
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Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:12 am Post

markfasano wrote:It's my perception that when a program's functionality is not at parity across platforms, (often significant) resentment exists among the "less favored" user base.

Here's how I imagine the dynamic plays out: Eventually these folks come up against a constraint while using the program -- something they want it to do that it can't, or something they wish it did "better." So they trot online to the support forum and discover that, holy smokes, the Mac version or the Windows version can do that thing, or X version does do it better.

And then they think. They think about how they paid the same, or almost the same amount of money for their redheaded-stepchild version that the developer -- whether it's a small shop or Acme software giant -- obviously doesn't give a shit about, and they stew in that. And then they feel cheated. And they stew in that. By now they're shivering with rage. And then they climb back online to let "management" have it with both barrels. (Unfortunately for them, management's not reading their jeremiads).

So, regarding the real or perceived shortcomings of Scrivener Windows: On these fora, plenty of friendly, well-meaning folk reply to such complaints with, "Well, if Scrivener doesn't work for you then try something else." Perfectly reasonable response. The problem is that, compared with Scrivener, there is nothing else. No other program even remotely comes close to doing what Scrivener does. So telling them, "Sorry you're dissatisfied, good luck with the alternatives" is just jamming their (imagined?) impotence back in their faces.

The best parallel with this spate of Scrivener Windows negativism I can think of off the top is Quicken (which is actually an imperfect parallel, since Quicken Windows -- the favored platform -- is and has been a stinking pile of deuce for years, whereas Scrivener Windows -- while suffering from a rather yucky font display and lacking such goodies as Snapshot comparison -- is a highly functional program). Intuit has treated Quicken Mac users like a wet food stamp for years. (And it should be said to those who decry the breach of civility on this forum that the entire Quicken forum is like Lord of the Flies compared with this space). Quicken Mac users look at their Windows counterparts, who paid (roughly) the same amount for their software and think, "Sure, they've got a bloated, buggy, dysfunctional pile of dung to contend with. But look at all the features they have but we don't."

Here's where I think the Scrivener/Quicken parallel is apt: like Scrivener, Quicken is indispensable. In the sphere of personal finance software, there simply is no alternative. So when (not if) Quicken breaks down on you, and erases 10 years of your mortgage transactions, or titanically screws your tax calculations, you can like it or you can lump it. And such conditions tend to breed at least a little bit of anger.

The only issue I have with the Quicken comparison is that Scrivener has no built-in obsolescence. Certain parts of Quicken simply STOP WORKING after a set time period, forcing you to purchase a newer version if you want that thing to work. And that thing is automatic downloading of information from financial institutions, which is kind of the whole point of Quicken, if you think about it. If you want to use your current version of Scrivener for the next fifteen years, it will still do everything then that it does now. It's not going to suddenly have a pop-up saying "Sorry, but the compile feature will no longer work with this version of Scrivener. Please upgrade to the newest version to continue compiling."

And while it may it may rankle some to hear the "sorry it doesn't work for you, hope something else works" responses, is there something else people are supposed to say? This is a community forum, trafficked primarily by users of the software with occasional input from L&L support staff. We (non-employee) users don't have many alternatives to suggest in the case of Scrivener not working for someone. In most of our experiences, Scrivener DOES work, so we have no frame of reference to understand the debilitating problems others are having.

I really am sorry that it doesn't work for some, but I don't have a way of patching bugs to fix their user experiences, and I'm sure that most of the others on this forum also don't. Is it better for us to say sorry because there's nothing else to say and risk the upset user feeling patronized or pushed aside? Or is it better for us to not say anything at all and risk them becoming more upset by feeling ignored? I'd love for everyone's experience to be perfect, but that's an unreasonable expectation, as is the expectation that all problems will be fixed for all people when all the people want them fixed.

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markfasano
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Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:32 pm Post

Sanguinius wrote:
And while it may it may rankle some to hear the "sorry it doesn't work for you, hope something else works" responses, is there something else people are supposed to say?


I can't think of anything else, especially given the limitations of ordinary Scrivener users which you describe. My post was merely descriptive, not prescriptive. If anything, the spirit and tone of this entire forum is very positive, IMO -- with occasional exceptions like the fellow earlier in this thread who compared one of his antagonists to a barking seal (not to mention much of the "where in hell is the iOS app already" threads).

Sanguinius wrote:In most of our experiences, Scrivener DOES work, so we have no frame of reference to understand the debilitating problems others are having ... Is it better for us to say sorry because there's nothing else to say and risk the upset user feeling patronized or pushed aside? Or is it better for us to not say anything at all and risk them becoming more upset by feeling ignored?


Well, I haven't done a scientific analysis, but it seems as though most of the truly vitriolic complaints on the L&L fora haven't been about Scrivener flat out not working, they've been about the delays surrounding the iOS app and Windows Scrivener's lack of parity with the Mac version (as well as any technical issues arising from that lack of parity).

So the question isn't what can we say, but rather what do these folks want to hear? Obviously I can only speak for myself. Windows Scrivener works well enough for me; I've edited, compiled and published a novel using it, and am currently using it to work on another novel. I've recommended it to other writers, with the caveat that the Windows version isn't where the Mac version is.

Leaving aside the inveterate haters, the bomb throwers, and the complaint-addicted, perhaps regular updates on what's happening with Windows 3.0 would satisfy some of the dissatisfied. I know Keith has said that he felt like a punching bag every time he came online to offer an update of the iOS app, but I wonder if his constant presence didn't help keep things from getting ugly.