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AmberV
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Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:08 am Post

We do, actually, over here. It's universal to both platforms because although they may be at different points on the path right now, the path is the same. Some requests are by nature platform specific---such as say the integration of a partical OS feature or what have you, but that's fine, these are the minority of requests.

Bugs are here. Platform specific, naturally.

I see what you're saying. The command "Expand All" belongs to the outliner, not to the binder. I don't use the outliner because it lacks features I am used to, and since my shortcut works in the binder (but only if I FIRST go there), I assumed "expand all" would belong to the binder.


Expand all, in my opinion, belongs as much to the binder as it does the outliner. My main point in this example was: which should take the universal expand all from the editor? I think either one might be too much of a presumption on the software's part. It can't guess as to which is your primary (which you last clicked on might not really be your primary navigation tool), and expanding both seems to me something that hardly anyone would ever really want. Maybe live with, but not really set out to do. Neither really pops out to me as a good situation. Even though I kind of like the idea of expand/contract all remotely, that quandary makes it difficult to apply.

Remote control in the program in something we (EDIT) don't shy away from. You can for example flip the history on the other split while typing in the other, and eventually we'll add the ability to PgUp/Down remotely, too. So it's not that that is the problem, it's that the remote control only ever impacts the alternate split. Bringing the Binder in as a potential canditate confuses the clarity of the operation.

While you may not work this way yourself, plenty do not use the binder as a primary navigator. They have it set up to affect only one split, which goes to a an outliner/corkboard and then that is set up to auto-load clicks in the second split. So they navigate part of the way with the binder, and then the rest of the way with the navigation split. It's a useful way to work when your draft has 650 pieces; fully expanding the binder is unrealistic. In that case the most relevant outline would be the split, not the binder.

No. Nothing changes. Neither the title bar of the editor (which loses the focus) nor anything in the binder (which receives the focus). I am on Vista32.


I'll check and see if that is a known issue. You are on 1.0.3 right? I recall that was updated fairly recently (my concept of time is blurry, however, so I could be wrong!).

"Reveal in Binder" is irreversible


Ah, got it. That's something to think about. There is, by the way, a passive information tool in the header bar, the "Path" menu. It is functional as well as informational. Selecting any ancestor in the list will jump the editor to that spot, and is thus useful for many contextual operations.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

St
StefanG
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:38 pm
Platform: Windows

Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:39 am Post

Thanks Amber,
I know about the combined wishlist for both platforms, but when posting there too many Mac-users respond by referring to this and that and already implemented etc..

The bug section in Windows contains 2000 topics without sticky topics about known bugs. It was very time-consuming for me to read through dozens of convoluted postings just to find out eventually that, yes, tables do have known issues, yes, this is a confirmed bug etc. Try searching for "table" and you know what I mean. In addition to that, as a new user, you may not know the correct terminology for some issues. It would really help to have a list of known bugs BEFORE stumbling over these very same bugs as a newbie.

they navigate part of the way with the binder, and then the rest of the way with the navigation split. It's a useful way to work when your draft has 650 pieces; fully expanding the binder is unrealistic. In that case the most relevant outline would be the split, not the binder.

Yes, I understand, actually that's the way I had wanted to work when I started out. But couldn't get to grips with the seemingly random views of corkboard vs text. Frustrated I gave up on using the split view.

I understand from other threads that my confusion is caused by a bug in the topic history sequence (going back to last viewed will often not take you there). Which again illlustrates my point above about not having a known bug list.

What I tried to achive before giving up on it: Keeping view modes fixed to an editor:
Corkboard on top, text below. Always.
Clicking a text file would open it below. Always. The top split would show its siblings, if any
Clicking a folder: Corkboard view above. Its text content below.
Not being able to do so, I gave up on using the split, and stuck to the binder exclusively.

I'll check and see if that is a known issue. You are on 1.0.3 right?

Yes, Vista 32 SP1 with 1.03. No visual indication in any of the title bars that I switched the focus to the binder. Also, this may be related: the formatting bar does not reflect the changes of the currently selected text. I am sitting in a bold font of size 16. The bar will still show regular font at 12.

Ma
MarieDees
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:49 pm
Platform: Windows

Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:11 pm Post

I might be misunderstanding you, but the document notes are tied to each item in the binder, so you can go on using the notes for the document you are writing in, and while you are writing in it you can see them, but if you need to jot down a quick timeline note you can select the card, see its notes, jot down your idea, and then click back into the editor to resume working---the notes following you along as you do so.


I'm working on a mystery novel, so what I really want is simply a timeline or other note field, like the scratchpad, that I can float above the whole Scrivener process so I can work back and forth as I need to fix clues and other issues. As I work on a chapter, I can reference the timeline, and if needed, make notes on places where things need to be synced up.

Really, I simply want to be able to float a card to work the way I work. Right now there is the scratch pad which has that function, but if I save that to the research field, I can't refloat it. So I'll just keep opening the research card and copy the info and sticking it back into the scratch pad. Because that simply is how I want it to work. So, the ability to do that is part of my wish list. If it doesn't come - I'll keep doing it manually.

br
brookter
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:22 pm Post

MarieDees wrote:I'm working on a mystery novel, so what I really want is simply a timeline or other note field, like the scratchpad, that I can float above the whole Scrivener process so I can work back and forth as I need to fix clues and other issues. As I work on a chapter, I can reference the timeline, and if needed, make notes on places where things need to be synced up.


I might be missing something, so apologies if I am, but don't Project Notes provide such a persistent view, regardless of the actual document in the editor? Granted, it's not a floating window, but it doesn't have to be reset from the research document each time and on face value it would seem to fit your requirements, pending the introduction of Mac-style QuickReference floating windows.

Project Notes are in the same Inspector as Document Notes -- you toggle between them on the Notes panel header bar. If you temporarily hide the Binder, you can have a reasonable wide editor and the project notes visible without too much difficulty, I think.

More details, from the manual:

You might also find the Project Notes tool to be useful, as it is accessible from everywhere in the interface. Project notes, like document notes, are a rich text field. That means you can format within them however you please, even drag pictures into them. Project notes can have different styling than document notes, making it easy to tell which you are currently viewing or editing. These can be set up in the Appearance options tab.

Their primary advantage is that they can be viewed from any Inspector instance, no matter what you are viewing, and even make an appearance when what you are viewing would ordinarily have no Inspector data, like the Draft or Research folders.


Does that help?

Regards

David

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AmberV
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Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:17 am Post

StefanG: yeah, there is a whole load of issues in the bug forum. Even though it looks as though there is no organisation on the surface, we are maintaining a database internally and so it’s okay to add to the clutter there. I appreciate your willingness to sort through the clutter and be a good citizen, but in my opinion a duplicate report in the bug forum is better than scattering bug reports elsewhere.

Having a nice list of known issues would be good, and that’s a medium-term goal we have. I am sorry it’s a bit intimidating at the moment. :/

If it makes you feel better you can submit bugs via the e-mail address as well.

What I tried to achive before giving up on it: Keeping view modes fixed to an editor:
Corkboard on top, text below. Always.
Clicking a text file would open it below. Always. The top split would show its siblings, if any
Clicking a folder: Corkboard view above. Its text content below.
Not being able to do so, I gave up on using the split, and stuck to the binder exclusively.


That is slightly different than what I was describing, but you do highlight one current problem in the Windows implementation in that it doesn’t retain view mode preference per split, which it should. If you set up Scrivenings in the right split and corkboard on the left, subsequent group mode clicks that impact either split should retain those settings. Right now you either get one or the other. That is a problem.

Though where I do disagree with you is that I don’t think the binder click action should change which split it impacts based on the type of item you click on (text->Scrivenings/Single split; container->group). I think the current system where you either pre-select via “Active” split, or specifically direct the binder to impact only one split or whichever split is “Inactive” is more flexible and allows one to generate niche workflows they otherwise could not if the system was deciding where clicks go, and it would result in a number of conflicting situations where that behaviour would become unpredictable—like if there were corkboards you click on a file, where does it go then? Active, surely, but then a second later you click on container and now the inactive split is changed. I just think that would look and feel really messy. It’s better to leave the user in control, even if that means the user needs to do a little more instruction now and then.

Such a system would cause certain workflows to cease to exist. I do this all of the time: I work primarily like I described with the split as a secondary navigator with exactly these interface components set up that way—but I bet you 50% of the time that when I click in the Binder, I’m not wanting to change my right split at all, I’m not navigating—I’m just looking up a detail in some other document and so in the moment I’m going from a Primary-Secondary-Edit workflow to Primary-Reference-Edit workflow, and then using remote control history to pop the left-split back to where it was and continue on writing in the right split. I’m just one person, but I’m trying to convey how the current system gives you all kinds of flexibility that a very rigid system like you are describing would eliminate, and it’s just that kind of scatterbrained jumping all over the place flexibility that I think really sets Scrivener apart from the traditional designs. More familiar, easier to use, maybe so—but should we always bias to that?

P.S. I hope you don’t take all of this as combative. I am thinking out what you are saying and have revised this more than a few times.

MarieDees: okay, thanks for the clarification. I had it in my head that you were using individual index cards for particular milestones in the timeline and so were moving thoughts from the scratch pad into those cards’ text fields periodically. My suggestion would have given you immediate access to those cards’ Notes field, which is just as good—in my opinion even better—than the main text field for this particular purpose. If the list is just one universal thing, then yes, brookter’s Project Notes suggestion is a good one.

And to reiterate, detachable windows for items are coming, but it probably won’t be for a while yet.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

St
StefanG
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:38 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:55 am Post

Amber,
I appreciate your commitment to taking postings seriously and commenting on them.

AmberV wrote: ... but in my opinion a duplicate report in the bug forum is better than scattering bug reports elsewhere.

I didn't say that. Scattering is what happens now, in my opinion. Please note I didn't criticize the occurence of duplicate reports, but the time-consuming need to sort through them to rule out my own user mistakes, which later turned out to be bugs on Scrivener's part.

AmberV wrote:If it makes you feel better you can submit bugs via the e-mail address as well.

It's not about submitting bugs. It's about not getting informed about them once they're confirmed. I don't automatically assume everything is a bug that doesn't work as I think it should. Asking and waiting for an answer is not nearly as efficient as having FAQ (not up-to-date, which also caused me frustration) and known bug lists (not existent)

AmberV wrote: That is slightly different than what I was describing, but you do highlight one current problem in the Windows implementation in that it doesn’t retain view mode preference per split, which it should. If you set up Scrivenings in the right split and corkboard on the left, subsequent group mode clicks that impact either split should retain those settings. Right now you either get one or the other. That is a problem.

Thank you for confirming. I wish we had known about this in this thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17130

Concerning your views on how the editor view modes react to clicks in the binder:
We have some misconceptions here, Amber. I did NOT ask for "a very rigid system" that "would cause certain workflows to cease to exist" or that leaves the user at the mercy of the system (it does that now, in my opinion).

"It’s better to leave the user in control" - exactly, that's what I was getting at. An optional setting or possibility to use the corkboard as a navigational pane only. I had put "always" there to make it clear that I don't want it to switch to text mode. This would allow to actually do what you described further above: "...navigate part of the way with the binder, and then the rest of the way with the navigation split."

Right now, the behavior is somewhat erratic, but it's good to know this problem is on the radar and will be improved upon. If only I had known about this earlier when I was struggling with these issues before giving up on them. It would have saved me a lot of time.

AmberV wrote:P.S. I hope you don’t take all of this as combative.

Not at all. The same holds true for you vice versa, I hope. We're both interested in improving the tool and the workflow. If this entails clarifying and belaboring some points, so be it.

si
simeva
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:30 pm
Platform: Windows
Location: Sheffield

Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:57 am Post

simeva wrote:Remove the default text "http://www." from the Create External reference dialogue on the Inspector. I always cut and paste a url into here, never type one, and so I need to select and delete this text every time I add a reference.

Have you tried drag and drop? I just drop the icon from the URL bar of the browser into the references list.

Yes, I have tried, and it doesn't work. The icon drags, and will drop into Word, but not into Scrivener. Am using Firefox 10, Win XP SP3, Scriv 1.03.

AmberV wrote: That is slightly different than what I was describing, but you do highlight one current problem in the Windows implementation in that it doesn’t retain view mode preference per split, which it should. If you set up Scrivenings in the right split and corkboard on the left, subsequent group mode clicks that impact either split should retain those settings. Right now you either get one or the other. That is a problem.

Thank you for confirming. I wish we had known about this in this thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17130

Hear hear! We also could have done with this succinct explanation over there.
http://www.literatureandlatte.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17295

si
simeva
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:30 pm
Platform: Windows
Location: Sheffield

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:22 pm Post

StefanG wrote:
What I tried to achive before giving up on it: Keeping view modes fixed to an editor:
Corkboard on top, text below. Always.
Clicking a text file would open it below. Always. The top split would show its siblings, if any
Clicking a folder: Corkboard view above. Its text content below.
Not being able to do so, I gave up on using the split, and stuck to the binder exclusively.

I've been trying to do something similar. I think my issue would be solved by:
simeva wrote:
One for the wishlist: an option on the 'View/Binder Affects/' menu for 'Both Editors'.

Is there any chance of this?

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StefanG
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:38 pm
Platform: Windows

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:53 pm Post

simeva wrote:
One for the wishlist: an option on the 'View/Binder Affects/' menu for 'Both Editors'.

Yes, that would solve my issue as well, in addition to editor panes retaining their view modes.
Let me emphasize the word "option" again. It's not about making Scrivener less flexible but more so.

Also, the program should remember these settings between sessions. At the moment it does not, which further adds to the confusion about irregularities in view modes.

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AmberV
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Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:32 pm Post

Yeah, okay I think we are dancing around the same idea in the end. The main problem that has confused the issue, I think, is that I am speaking from a knowledge of what should be; i.e. how it works on the Mac as refined today, and I have less experience with the subtle differences in the Windows implementation. I didn't realise the view modes were not persistent to splits until just yesterday. In fact I'm sure the user manual states that they are persistent and changes to the view mode do not alter the preference for the opposing split. Little things like that, you don't have to time to test when you're getting a 250 page manual out in three weeks. :) That's my fault.

Binder Affects > Both Editors

I like that idea. I'll put it on the list for consideration. It would make using folder text for chapter notes quite nice. Load single text on one side and Corkboard on the other for a Notes + Scenes view in a single click.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

ac
ackers
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:14 am
Platform: Windows

Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:15 pm Post

I got some great suggestions here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16831

Don't ask, don't get...

br
brookter
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:24 pm Post

ackers wrote:I got some great suggestions here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16831

Don't ask, don't get...


Ackers,

You can already accomplish some of your wish list in Windows -- I've added a post on the thread you've just linked to...

Regards

David

jm
jmsthornton
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:03 am
Platform: Windows
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:47 am Post

Fixed line numbering for each document in Scrivener would not only be useful for locating positions in long documents, but it would help with comparisons of imported / exported documents if any subsequent editing was done in either. The reason I would most like it however is that I would like to import transcripts of interviews into the research section and use specific lines in my draft. Fixed line marking would not only enable me to locate those lines, but give me a reference point or bookmark for any commentary I wanted to make of the type "line 16 doc 1 and line 45 doc two refer to... (insert analytic comment)". Word allows fixed line numbering and it would be great to import this with a Word doc.

Mi
Mike Korner
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:26 pm
Platform: Mac, Win + iOS
Location: Iowa, USA

Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:16 pm Post

StefanG wrote:My wishlist:

1) Moving paragraph up or down
A quick way to float a paragpraph up or down, simply by holding down say, Ctrl and pressing Arrow-keys. Right now you have to press Home and Shift-select keys etc, to mark the whole paragraph, then do a Ctrl X, then move up, then hit Ctrl V - :( tedious and frustrating.



Not having this ability is the reason I work in Word for Outlining (in text, not in the binder outline). In Word, Shift+Alt+UpArrow or Shift+Alt+DownArrow allows you to quickly move a paragraph up or down. Major time saver. Please? :)
Scrivener running on ...
  • Windows 7, 12GB RAM, 1TB disk
  • MacBook Air (2011), 2GB RAM, 256GB SSID
  • iPad Air
  • iPhone

fa
fabart
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:59 am
Platform: Windows

Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:49 pm Post

StefanG wrote:My wishlist:

1) Moving paragraph up or down
A quick way to float a paragpraph up or down, simply by holding down say, Ctrl and pressing Arrow-keys...


Triple please...??