Scrivener 3 Windows Release

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wburkett
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Wed May 29, 2019 3:43 am Post

devinganger wrote: Do you want them to release incomplete software?


What I'd like is to get a sense that the Windows version is getting the same level of attention that the Mac version has, instead of seeming like a second-class citizen (which has always seemed to be the case).

I believe you that they're working hard to bring the Windows version up to the same level of capability as the Mac version. And I believe their intentions are good - as I said, I'm not mad or angry at L&L, so there's no need to defend them. I'm just expressing my disappointment that it is taking so long. And I can understand and accept the reasons that it's taking so long and still be disappointed.

Da
DaveK
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Wed May 29, 2019 4:57 pm Post

I recently invested in Scrivener (for Windows) after reading many reviews of several different writing systems. The final contest was down to two, with Scrivener being marginally better in some though not in all things.

The thing that decided it for me was that although Scrivener for Windows lagged behind the Mac version, there were many hints that the much improved Windows version (V3) was getting fairly close to release and that while there would be some differences due to the differences between the two operating systems, virtually all the Mac features would be available in Windows.

What I didn't do was to find this thread and see that 'fairly close' and 'near future' were such flexible descriptions. Because of this I feel somewhat cheated. It is possible that I would still have gone with Scrivener, but I would have been prepared for a long wait in the hope that V3 would appear in the fullness of time. Or it is just as possible that I would have continued with my writing software I was using at that time and waited to see what happened. And if the long vigil became unacceptably long, chosen the other software in my two horse race.

Some thoughts and associated questions that might not be answered for commercial confidentiality reasons.

What is the proportion of Scrivener sales between Windows and Mac?
Has any research been done to see if the substantial difference between the versions is putting people off Scrivener for Windows? This might be relevant to the urgency of playing catch up.
Has any research been done on the relative proportion of writers 'out there' using Mac and Windows? This might be relevant to the potential for sales to the as yet uncommitted Windows writers.

:?

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kewms
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Wed May 29, 2019 5:00 pm Post

DaveK wrote:Some thoughts and associated questions that might not be answered for commercial confidentiality reasons.

What is the proportion of Scrivener sales between Windows and Mac?
Has any research been done to see if the substantial difference between the versions is putting people off Scrivener for Windows? This might be relevant to the urgency of playing catch up.
Has any research been done on the relative proportion of writers 'out there' using Mac and Windows? This might be relevant to the potential for sales to the as yet uncommitted Windows writers.


Literature & Latte is privately held and does not release sales data.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

cg
cgray77
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Wed May 29, 2019 8:40 pm Post

For myself, I'm hoping we get an update on an estimated ETA--I've used Scrivener for several years, but I have some large projects that would benefit from the features of v3, so I'm holding off on them, but if we're talking more than half a year before release, I'd probably just go ahead on them.

Da
DaveK
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Thu May 30, 2019 12:16 am Post

kewms wrote:
DaveK wrote:Some thoughts and associated questions that might not be answered for commercial confidentiality reasons.

What is the proportion of Scrivener sales between Windows and Mac?
Has any research been done to see if the substantial difference between the versions is putting people off Scrivener for Windows? This might be relevant to the urgency of playing catch up.
Has any research been done on the relative proportion of writers 'out there' using Mac and Windows? This might be relevant to the potential for sales to the as yet uncommitted Windows writers.


Literature & Latte is privately held and does not release sales data.

Katherine


Hi Katherine

I'm not surprised and I fully understand about the need for confidentiality of sales data and target audience research. All I am trying to do is offer some thoughts - though as a successful company I'm sure you're already on top of it.

What I'm really hoping is that that you can work out some way of giving your Windows customer base some realistic hints as to whether we should continue to hang on in there for a proper V3 within the next few months (we're in the second quarter after all) or simply bite the bullet and accept that the Windows version of Scrivener will always be the poor relation and several steps behind the Mac version.

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Twolane
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Thu May 30, 2019 1:02 am Post

It never ceases to amaze me to read about the pearl clutching regarding a new version of Scrivener. I've been using the Windows product in its various incarnations since 2011. Many have been using it far longer. I've written (oh, I dunno, allow me a moment to call up my spreadsheet) more than a hundred short stories and novels in that time.

Reading the comments in this and other threads, I was apparently using an antique. Who would have known had you all not been so informative?

Now, with Beta 17 as my Scrivener of choice, I am using an incomplete and unusable product. Oh the horror.

But that's all right. I'll keep on keeping on writing and publishing and selling. As for the rest of you, well...

Write on, brothers and sisters.

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steveshank
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Thu May 30, 2019 1:23 am Post

DaveK wrote:
simply bite the bullet and accept that the Windows version of Scrivener will always be the poor relation and several steps behind the Mac version.


First a disclaimer. I know nothing. Just a user, and only for a couple of years. But, I think you should assume that the Windows version will be behind the Mac Version. I would not call it a poor cousin, and of course whether it is "several steps behind" depends on the definition of a step. But, for years it has been behind and it is currently aiming for the specs of Mac 3.0 while the mac version is at 3.2 I think. It was originally designed for the Mac, and many things it does are hard to do on Windows and are taking much longer than they thought.

However, the amount of work that gets done every 6 weeks or so when a new beta 3 is released, is extensive. They are currently on beta 17. The resources that are going into the programming, and beta support are extensive and does not fit a "poor cousin" label. Two years ago when I selected Scrivener, it was because the Windows version beat the competition (as far as I could determine).

About 9 months ago I moved to the Beta 3 for a project and have since moved everything over. It is working for me. If L&L were willing to have a "poor cousin" Windows version, they could have reduced the specs below Mac 3.0 and released a better program than 1.9x. They are really trying to make them comparable and seem unwilling to accept a significantly lesser Windows product.

So, I think you can assume that Windows Scrivener is likely to continue to be the best product of its kind for Windows. That L&L will continue to pour resources, programming, documentation, and support into the Windows version, but that it is likely to remain a bit behind the Mac version.

There are different programming teams on the two versions, and we can' t expect the Mac programmers to sit around and do nothing so the Windows clients don't feel left behind. The current strategy is to make the Windows version like the Mac Version, rather than let it veer off into its own world. I think that is likely to keep the Mac version a bit ahead.

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kewms
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Thu May 30, 2019 2:07 am Post

steveshank wrote:First a disclaimer. I know nothing. Just a user, and only for a couple of years. But, I think you should assume that the Windows version will be behind the Mac Version. I would not call it a poor cousin, and of course whether it is "several steps behind" depends on the definition of a step. But, for years it has been behind and it is currently aiming for the specs of Mac 3.0 while the mac version is at 3.2 I think. It was originally designed for the Mac, and many things it does are hard to do on Windows and are taking much longer than they thought.


The current Mac version is 3.1.2. The only major new feature since the 3.0 release has been Dark Mode, which was (on the Mac) mostly a matter of creating a second set of interface elements. Mac OS provides the tools for switching back and forth. Most of the other changes have been bug fixes -- I hope those are okay with Windows folks?

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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AmberV
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Thu May 30, 2019 2:47 pm Post

And not only that, but Dark Mode was folded into the beta and will be part of the 3.0 release—that is without a comprehensive operating system-wide infrastructure for doing so. There will be some necessary post-3.0 updates to catch up with a few of the additions made to Scrivener since the 3.0 release for macOS, but a lot of them have been likewise folded in or are planned to be.

If you really want to know what has been released for the Mac since 3.0 then download its user manual and flip to Appendix E, in the “What’s New” section. All of the notable changes are documented there—and those who know anything about the beta will recognise a number of them.

By my quick tally (which is meant more to convey a rough estimate, I didn’t spend an hour on this), here are the results:

  • Notable macOS refinements and additions since 3.0: 27
  • Of those improvements that are completely irrelevant to Windows, or represent removals/lateral changes (like shortcuts being shuffled around): 7
  • Those improvements that have already been added to the Windows v3 beta: 14

So out of the roughly 20 improvements that we considered notable enough to make mention of in the appendix of the user manual, 14 of those have already been implemented in the beta, or are planned to be included in 3.0 for Windows, meaning only six notable changes will be added after 3.0 is released—assuming they won’t anyway, or that I missed a memo about one of them being on the list.

To give you a taste of what some of these six are, among them are:

  • A weird “Kindle optimised” ePub variant that was designed to work with IngramSpark—which turns out to not work that well (they reject it).
  • Inserting media timestamps with a shortcut while transcribing. Pretty cool—for 1% of our user base.
  • Find duplicates: a project search mode that looks for exact duplicate items in the binder—also pretty niche, but handy if you need it.

To be fair there are some neater things in that list as well that we’ll be excited to bring to Windows:

  • Focus mode, to zero in on the context you’re writing and fade the rest out.
  • Improved screenplay layout for better on-the-fly proofing, like dual dialogue and MORE/CONT’D markers.

And also to be fair, there a still a lot of things that need to be done to reach the full 3.0 specification as well. I don’t mean to completely minimise the differences, and this simple list here is by no means intended to be a complete to-do list. But in a Thread of Wallowing like this, it is sometimes useful to inject a few facts into what is otherwise a discussion of feelings, senses, and vague misunderstandings of where the beta is, and just how far the Mac version has really progressed since 3.0. Facts like how the Windows development team has more staff, or how there have been 17 releases in the same time period there have been five for Mac, or how the relative feature addition within that same time span is hardly comparable—in that the real Windows “score” isn’t a mere 14, but probably more along the lines of well over a hundred notable additions since beta 1, some of which represent extremely complicated and difficult to implement features. Facts like how it took five years for the Mac version to go through its full cycle of development, to get to where it was at 3.0.

I see people here posting with less than a dozen total posts, most of them spent in this thread. Maybe get out of this thread and into the beta forum—download it, see where the project actually is, and then form an opinion based on that, rather than a bunch of hearsay and Game of Telephones (and we all know how badly that can end).

In short, as someone else said: write on. Truly, jokes aside, I am sorry to hear some of you are disappointed, for whatever your reasons may be. We’ll continue working as hard as we have been bridging what was once an enormous gap, and is now narrowing down quite satisfactorily.

Speaking of which, I’m going to get back to work actually helping to get this stuff done.
.:.
Ioa Petra'ka
“Whole sight, or all the rest is desolation.” —John Fowles

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devinganger
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Thu May 30, 2019 4:36 pm Post

Well said, Ioa. Thanks for bringing facts to the knife fight! :)
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Da
DaveK
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Fri May 31, 2019 7:23 am Post

My comments were based around being left in the dark about when (or even whether) Windows V3 was coming. Experience with Axminster's similarly vague statements has left me somewhat cynical.

Given that L&L can't guarantee a Beta (no company can) for serious work, do anyone out there trying/testing/using the latest beta have any comments about how stable it feels and whether they are using it for 'serious' work?

:)

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devinganger
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Fri May 31, 2019 8:56 am Post

DaveK wrote: do anyone out there trying/testing/using the latest beta have any comments about how stable it feels and whether they are using it for 'serious' work?


Seriously? There's an entire beta forum out there with people talking about *nothing but* their experiences using the program.
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Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot

Da
DaveK
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Fri May 31, 2019 9:28 am Post

devinganger wrote:
DaveK wrote: do anyone out there trying/testing/using the latest beta have any comments about how stable it feels and whether they are using it for 'serious' work?


Seriously? There's an entire beta forum out there with people talking about *nothing but* their experiences using the program.


Sorry!

That was only my 3rd post on this forum and I don't know my way around yet. I asked the question because responses to my original post on this thread mentioned the beta several times and appeared to suggest that it was good enough to be used for real work.

Anyway, thank you for your constructive advice. :)

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kewms
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Fri May 31, 2019 6:46 pm Post

DaveK wrote:My comments were based around being left in the dark about when (or even whether) Windows V3 was coming. Experience with Axminster's similarly vague statements has left me somewhat cynical.


Given that, as noted, there's an entire forum devoted to the beta, maybe spend a little more time looking around before deciding that you're being left in the dark? We're hardly trying to conceal our plans for Windows V3.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

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devinganger
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Fri May 31, 2019 7:18 pm Post

DaveK wrote:Anyway, thank you for your constructive advice. :)


You're correct, i did not actually give constructive advice. Let me remedy that.

In general, before you post on a topic in any forum, spend some time actually looking around learning the forum to determine if it has already been discussed. If it offers a search function, use it. And if those attempts don't help you find relevant information, then go ahead and post -- and say what you've already done to find the answers.
--
Devin L. Ganger, WA7DLG
Not a L&L employee; opinions are those of my cat
Winner "Best in Class", 2018 My First Supervillain Photo Shoot