Open but unchanged projects marked as modified in v3

re
reepicheep
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:11 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS

Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:37 pm Post

From the moment that Scrivener v3 for macOS was released I have had a problem with projects stored on Dropbox that sync with my iOS devices. Any project open in Scrivener for macOS is marked under iOS as having been modified even when they have not! I run Scrivener v3 for macOS with several open projects although only one is usually being changed in any 24/38 hour period. I run Scrivener v3 for macOS for days without closure because I want instant access to my projects and am so impatient I cannot wait for it to start up — I’ll lose that butterfly thought in the start-up time.
This is the cause:
Projects will always be checked when their windows are brought to the
foreground. This check is mainly a protection for those cases where the
foremost window on your computer is the very same project you are editing
with your mobile device.

This is a bigger change from v3.0.3 (which I was running until the weekend when I upgraded to 3.1.3). There this mis-guided modification timestamp updating was only done the first time that Scrivener was brought to the front in a 24 hour period. Either way this "check" goes too far.
This behaviour plays havoc with bandwidth usage because projects that have not been changed have to be synced with iOS! It is the very opposite of behaviour reported as "fixed" in the release notes for v3.1.1
f a project is opened and closed without any changes being made, the modification date in the Finder should no longer be updated to today’s date.

Scrivener v2 for OSX did none of this. Only projects that had been modified were marked under iOS as needing to be synched.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 3472
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:23 pm Post

reepicheep wrote:I run Scrivener v3 for macOS with several open projects although only one is usually being changed in any 24/38 hour period. I run Scrivener v3 for macOS for days without closure because I want instant access to my projects

I hope you occasionally tell Scrivener to make a backup, as the default setting is to backup on project close...

You shouldn't have them open if you plan to access them from an iDevice, so why sync them at all if you are not gonna edit them on the iDevice??
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

re
reepicheep
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:11 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS

Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:15 pm Post

lunk wrote:I hope you occasionally tell Scrivener to make a backup, as the default setting is to backup on project close...
They get backed up when they sync

lunk wrote:You shouldn't have them open if you plan to access them from an iDevice, so why sync them at all if you are not gonna edit them on the iDevice??
But as the unchanged don't actually need to be synced what's the harm? Other than excessive use of my bandwidth?
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 3472
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:03 pm Post

reepicheep wrote:They get backed up when they sync

When they sync with what?
I'm referring to the built-in backup system in Scrivener, in which Scrivener automatically saves a copy of the project (preferably in zip format) to a designated folder.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

Ji
JimRac
Posts: 1151
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:06 pm
Platform: Win + iOS

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:08 pm Post

reepicheep wrote:
lunk wrote:I hope you occasionally tell Scrivener to make a backup, as the default setting is to backup on project close...
They get backed up when they sync
If I had a dollar for every post I've read on this forum where the poster relied on syncing for their backups and then when trouble struck were left with no easy way to restore corrupted projects, I'd have...well, I'd have enough to buy a very nice dinner for my wife and myself. :D

Perhaps I've completely misunderstood your post and you do take zipped backups. But just in case you don't -

A backup is a read-only snapshot in time of something, while Syncing is a living breathing thing. That's why syncing is not a backup.

It's your data, your writing, your time, so yours to do with as you will. But be aware of the following types of challenges that have been mentioned on these boards:

- The sync process itself barfed and completely corrupted a project. Recovery: many hours sorting through files on DropBox version history to recreate it from individual documents.

- Something unknown partially corrupted a project. Recovery: many hours sorting through files on DropBox version history to recreate it from individual documents.

- The Dropbox account was deleted, and all files lost irretrievably. Recovery: None.

- Poster wanted to recover older version of a project/document, and had to spend many hours sorting through files on DropBox version history to find it.

Those are the ones I remember off the top of my head while sitting here drinking my morning coffee. But you get the idea. I wish none of these on you.

Perhaps you're thinking, "Well, I have a version of the project on all my other devices, I'll fall back on one of those." That only works if you realize there's an issue *before* DropbBox works its magic and syncs corruption to all of your devices. All the people in the posts I referred to did not.

But perhaps you'll be luckier. Or perhaps you have some other backup process (Time Machine?) you are relying on, so my cautions are unnecessary.

But even with Time Machine, there is no *easier* way to recover a Scrivener project with problems than from a zipped backup.

Best,
Jim
I’m just a customer.

User avatar
Silverdragon
Posts: 1091
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:52 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Tarzana, California, USA
Contact:

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:31 pm Post

If I understand you correctly, Reepicheep, you have Scrivener set to automatically backup before mobile sync as in the screenshot below. If that's correct, the above comments regarding relying on syncing as backup don't apply. :D
screenshot 2019-07-03 09.26.24.jpg
screenshot 2019-07-03 09.26.24.jpg (72.28 KiB) Viewed 431 times
So you know where I'm coming from:
  • I'm a user, not an L&L employee.
  • Mac Scrivener 3.1.3, MacBook Air 11, MacOS 10.14.6 (Mojave)
  • IOS Scrivener 1.1.5; iPhone 8 Plus, iOS 12.4.1; iPad 6th gen, iOS 12.4.1

User avatar
lunk
Posts: 3472
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:24 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Sweden 64° N

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:38 pm Post

... but that doesn't help if the projects are edited on the Mac for a while and not on the iDevice, because then there is no syncing going on and hence no backup created. So if the project is corrupted, the corrupt version will be synced with Dropbox, iScrivener will say it needs to be synced, the corrupt version is then destroying the older but correct version on the iDevice and only rather old backups (hopefully) exist on the Mac.
I am a user, writing non-fiction and science, using:
* Mac Scrivener 3 on a Macbook 12”, MacBook Pro 13”, and iMac 27”, all running the latest MacOS
* iOS Scrivener 1 on an iPhone 8, iPad Air 9.7”, and iPad Pro 12.9”, all running the latest iOS

User avatar
Silverdragon
Posts: 1091
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:52 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS
Location: Tarzana, California, USA
Contact:

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:53 pm Post

Well, it's better than none. :D But yes, if you're never going to close the project on the Mac, a good plan is to tie backup to the save (cmd-s) and use it often.
So you know where I'm coming from:
  • I'm a user, not an L&L employee.
  • Mac Scrivener 3.1.3, MacBook Air 11, MacOS 10.14.6 (Mojave)
  • IOS Scrivener 1.1.5; iPhone 8 Plus, iOS 12.4.1; iPad 6th gen, iOS 12.4.1

re
reepicheep
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:11 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS

Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:59 pm Post

Silverdragon wrote:If I understand you correctly, Reepicheep, you have Scrivener set to automatically backup before mobile sync as in the screenshot below. If that's correct, the above comments regarding relying on syncing as backup don't apply. :D
screenshot 2019-07-03 09.26.24.jpg
I do have that enabled. So yes it does make the earlier suggestion useless.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

re
reepicheep
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:11 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:01 pm Post

lunk wrote:... but that doesn't help if the projects are edited on the Mac for a while and not on the iDevice, because then there is no syncing going on and hence no backup created. So if the project is corrupted, the corrupt version will be synced with Dropbox, iScrivener will say it needs to be synced, the corrupt version is then destroying the older but correct version on the iDevice and only rather old backups (hopefully) exist on the Mac.
Except that the open projects will have been edited at some point in the past on iOS and the subsequent sync will have created a backup as a side effect. It still does not change the fact that Scrivener for macOS is marking projects as changed that have not been changed.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

re
reepicheep
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:11 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:03 pm Post

JimRac wrote:
In addition to Scrivener backups I have Time Machine running so there is a backup available.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

re
reepicheep
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:11 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:04 pm Post

lunk wrote:
reepicheep wrote:They get backed up when they sync

When they sync with what?
I'm referring to the built-in backup system in Scrivener, in which Scrivener automatically saves a copy of the project (preferably in zip format) to a designated folder.
You mean apart from Time Machine which I have running? The sync process creates a backup when iOS sourced changes are included and the macOS version is closed and re-opened.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

re
reepicheep
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:11 pm
Platform: Mac + iOS

Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:05 pm Post

Let me spell this out as simple as possible. Scrivener for macOS marks open projects as changed that have not been changed.
Techie details in case I forget

Scrivener 3.1.3 (11945)
Mac OS X 10.13.6
Scrivener 1.1.5 (1301)
iOS 9.3.5/12.3.1

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 5133
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:15 pm Post

reepicheep wrote:But as the unchanged don't actually need to be synced what's the harm? Other than excessive use of my bandwidth?


On the Mac, synchronization is completely under the control of Dropbox. The Dropbox application walks through the project folder and checks the individual component files. Files that have not changed will not be synced, and therefore will not consume bandwidth.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team

User avatar
kewms
Posts: 5133
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:22 pm
Platform: Mac

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:18 pm Post

reepicheep wrote:Let me spell this out as simple as possible. Scrivener for macOS marks open projects as changed that have not been changed.


Opening a project changes it. At a minimum, it updates the interface settings to "remember" the current window size, cursor location, and so forth.

Katherine
Scrivener Support Team